As new equip craft system involves many regrades, would be good to include the boxes with random Arm/Wep/Jew bound Regrade Scrolls.
ArcheRage 3.5 Discussion
- Thread starter Sparkle
- Start date
DrunkKitten
New Member
The image system doesn't allow this as by allowing it bound armour becomes tradeable as image items still retain all of their stats and grade.
We are working on the possibility to extract image items without destroying them not only from the costumes but other items as well for some time already. Unfortunately, no sulution is found for now. But we keep this task in our workshop.
DrunkKitten
New Member
I see, that's a shame. Thank you tho
It is not in 3.5. It is in later patches
Mega
New Member
I really appreciate the fact that you are giving us the opportunity to voice our opinion on this patch -- because, as I'm sure you are aware, patch 3.5 is where your server (and all of our favorite passtime) comes to a major branching point.
The good: I think mostly everyone agrees that the new skills are a must. They are an excellent addition to the game. New events , whalesong etc were also excellent additions.
The Bad - everything else. I'm not going to go through item-by-item, but essentially all of the other changes kill crafting, and as a result the entire economy and the method by which players go about getting geared. It also changes what "getting geared" means. The economy of this game is propped on crafting and regrading, and the randomness and luck that is involved with this process. Negating that, and making it easier for everyone to get the "ideal" gear roll for their class, may seem like a good idea for "player experience" at first, but the success of this game hinges on the fact that the economy is so multifaceted, and the way that you *choose* to go about obtaining your gear and progressing through the game (grinding packs and buying, crafting yourself, or PVPing and actually gaining from it, etc...) is extremely diverse and caters to all types of gameplay. Literally every change that occurs in 3.5 that I did not mention in "The good" section above runs directly against this, and you end up with a game that very much caters to one or two play styles. People may complain about the RNG involved with crafting and regrading and not getting what they want despite trying multiple times, but that RNG is what makes any item in this game valuable at all. Take these things away, and suddenly there is no rare anymore, just a direct linear progression that is entirely dependent on grinding one goal and swiping a credit card to boost ahead on that same linear progression. I do think we need to raise the ceiling on gear as more and more people are getting closer and closer to top tier - my suggestion on this is to then release a version of "Erenor" that just is another tier along the current crafting system (IE the step after Ayanad IF you roll the correct upgradable type of ayanad). I do not suggest adding the transmuter - that is a horrendous change that once again guts the economy.
Be wary of asking players the question "Do you want to be able to just get all the gear you want, and have a very clear linear and obtainable pathway to improve that gear?" -- it sounds easier to people, so many players will say yes, but the players are simply not in the position to make an unbiased decision on that matter. They often times aren't able to appreciate just how much of an impact that type of massive change will have on every aspect of the game. Once they feel accomplished and get a few hours of meaningless PVP (without economic gain because economy is now dead and they don't need anything they can't get from grinding anyway) wearing their "ideal" piece of equipment, they suddenly realize that there is only one path of progression (feeding erenor gear) and the game loses all of those other activities, all the highs and lows of crafting, finally getting a rare piece of equipment, organizing trade runs when they know a rival guild is busy, etc... The game becomes bland and people move on to another equally bland MMO that has better raid content like WoW or FFXIV, and go back to talking about how great Ashes of Creation is going to be.
3.5 has already killed AA once, any opinion to the contrary is objectively false, please don't let it happen again
TL;DR - Adding erenor and transmuter (and even removing wisps) is objectively an economic change that a gear-focused game like this can't handle.
The good: I think mostly everyone agrees that the new skills are a must. They are an excellent addition to the game. New events , whalesong etc were also excellent additions.
The Bad - everything else. I'm not going to go through item-by-item, but essentially all of the other changes kill crafting, and as a result the entire economy and the method by which players go about getting geared. It also changes what "getting geared" means. The economy of this game is propped on crafting and regrading, and the randomness and luck that is involved with this process. Negating that, and making it easier for everyone to get the "ideal" gear roll for their class, may seem like a good idea for "player experience" at first, but the success of this game hinges on the fact that the economy is so multifaceted, and the way that you *choose* to go about obtaining your gear and progressing through the game (grinding packs and buying, crafting yourself, or PVPing and actually gaining from it, etc...) is extremely diverse and caters to all types of gameplay. Literally every change that occurs in 3.5 that I did not mention in "The good" section above runs directly against this, and you end up with a game that very much caters to one or two play styles. People may complain about the RNG involved with crafting and regrading and not getting what they want despite trying multiple times, but that RNG is what makes any item in this game valuable at all. Take these things away, and suddenly there is no rare anymore, just a direct linear progression that is entirely dependent on grinding one goal and swiping a credit card to boost ahead on that same linear progression. I do think we need to raise the ceiling on gear as more and more people are getting closer and closer to top tier - my suggestion on this is to then release a version of "Erenor" that just is another tier along the current crafting system (IE the step after Ayanad IF you roll the correct upgradable type of ayanad). I do not suggest adding the transmuter - that is a horrendous change that once again guts the economy.
Be wary of asking players the question "Do you want to be able to just get all the gear you want, and have a very clear linear and obtainable pathway to improve that gear?" -- it sounds easier to people, so many players will say yes, but the players are simply not in the position to make an unbiased decision on that matter. They often times aren't able to appreciate just how much of an impact that type of massive change will have on every aspect of the game. Once they feel accomplished and get a few hours of meaningless PVP (without economic gain because economy is now dead and they don't need anything they can't get from grinding anyway) wearing their "ideal" piece of equipment, they suddenly realize that there is only one path of progression (feeding erenor gear) and the game loses all of those other activities, all the highs and lows of crafting, finally getting a rare piece of equipment, organizing trade runs when they know a rival guild is busy, etc... The game becomes bland and people move on to another equally bland MMO that has better raid content like WoW or FFXIV, and go back to talking about how great Ashes of Creation is going to be.
3.5 has already killed AA once, any opinion to the contrary is objectively false, please don't let it happen again
TL;DR - Adding erenor and transmuter (and even removing wisps) is objectively an economic change that a gear-focused game like this can't handle.
Last edited:
I really don’t understand the complaints about the cost for an erenor weapon when a metal legendary t7 is objectively more expensive. If you just lock erenor at divine/epic then the concerns for whales going to legendary erenor+ are eliminated. For the most part whales will still value legendary t7 or mythic t7 over erenor. But erenor will allow players with less gold to close that gap significantly.
Here is a cost analysis spreadsheet
Even if you double the estimated regrade cost the erenor is still cheaper to obtain.
All items are presumed to be bought, because even if you farm them those same items could be sold (opportunity cost)
Numbers relating to the illustrious/epheriums needed for erenor are found here http://forums.archeagegame.com/show...tegy-to-EPIC-and-LEGENDARY-for-Erenor-weapons
Again, erenor is not exceptionally strong st those tiers, we already have weapons in our current patch that are stronger, so just lock erenor to a point that they do not exceed what we already deal with (I.e divine or epic)
Secondly: the cost for going to epic is a bit wrong, it is 10 divine delphinads not 8 but after the patch divine is much easier so the cost should stay the same.
So if there is a concern for erenor, don’t fuck over the people who want it implemented, just lock them to not be better than what the game already offers. I believe this is the better solution then just not implementing them at all.
Concerns over erenor armor is something different and may require a lower lock (maybe celestial) but I’ve not looked into that.
@Sparkle @Sjinderson just tagging since everyone else seems to just be screaming about cost without providing any statistics
Here is a cost analysis spreadsheet
Even if you double the estimated regrade cost the erenor is still cheaper to obtain.
All items are presumed to be bought, because even if you farm them those same items could be sold (opportunity cost)
Numbers relating to the illustrious/epheriums needed for erenor are found here http://forums.archeagegame.com/show...tegy-to-EPIC-and-LEGENDARY-for-Erenor-weapons
Again, erenor is not exceptionally strong st those tiers, we already have weapons in our current patch that are stronger, so just lock erenor to a point that they do not exceed what we already deal with (I.e divine or epic)
Secondly: the cost for going to epic is a bit wrong, it is 10 divine delphinads not 8 but after the patch divine is much easier so the cost should stay the same.
So if there is a concern for erenor, don’t fuck over the people who want it implemented, just lock them to not be better than what the game already offers. I believe this is the better solution then just not implementing them at all.
Concerns over erenor armor is something different and may require a lower lock (maybe celestial) but I’ve not looked into that.
@Sparkle @Sjinderson just tagging since everyone else seems to just be screaming about cost without providing any statistics
Where'd you get the cost of that Divine Ayanad from? And also, you're using current market costs for materials, when Live's archeum costs doubled and Charcoal prices quintupled.
Charcoal wont be an issue because sparkle has already addressed that issue (see earlier in this thread) and the archeum cost is pretty much close to the same for T7 (i.e 315 mana wisp which cost archeum to make) so even if it increases after the patch the cost to t7 will equally increase. Infact, for the most part that can be said for charcoal as well, you only need like 1000 less charcoal for t7 which i just now realised I left out of the spread sheet, so you can increase the cost for t7 by another 5k ish.
As for the divine ayanads, ive bought over 5 divine ayanads on this server for that cost, and my SS i bought like last week for 33k. All you have to do is wait for a shitty roll to pop up. Also, the chance to divine in 3.5 is 60% with a charm, so you could potentially just buy at celestial and no break it after the patch hits.
Current AH divine's which are less than 35k
But excluding all of that, even if the price for archeum doubled, the cost to epic an erenor (better than t7 legendary) would be cheaper than a legendary t7 with the added cost only being applied to the erenor (even though it would goto the t7 too) And the cost to make a divine erenor is exponetionally cheaper than legendary t7 (literally a t1 legendary almost cost as much as the full divine erenor cost)
But even if the cost was more than t7 legendary (hypothetically), why would it matter if the weapons are not better? If people are worried about cost then just let the admins add the weapons and you dont have to make one. If the weapons are locked at either divine or epic then it wont change the balance of the game (because legendary t7 is better than divine erenor and mythic t7 is better than epic erenor) We already have gearlords on this server with either of those weapons, so again just locking erenor litterally does 0 harm to the server, and if it turns out to be cheaper to make them then it will only allows for less geared players to more cheaply gear up and close the gear gap (I.E something that is good)
Last edited:
lord coin price will be much higher than 200g, they already are now and it will just be even more once/if erenor is announced
I'd say lcs will prob be around 300g per in 3.5 because only castle owners can control that and seeing how current ones are they will sell really expensive and people will have no choice but to buy it anyway.
I'd say lcs will prob be around 300g per in 3.5 because only castle owners can control that and seeing how current ones are they will sell really expensive and people will have no choice but to buy it anyway.
Charcoal wont be an issue because sparkle has already addressed that issue (see earlier in this thread) and the archeum cost is pretty much close to the same for T7 (i.e 315 mana wisp which cost archeum to make) so even if it increases after the patch the cost to t7 will equally increase. Infact, for the most part that can be said for charcoal as well, you only need like 1000 less charcoal for t7 which i just now realised I left out of the spread sheet, so you can increase the cost for t7 by another 5k ish.
As for the divine ayanads, ive bought over 5 divine ayanads on this server for that cost, and my SS i bought like last week for 33k. All you have to do is wait for a shitty roll to pop up. Also, the chance to divine in 3.5 is 60% with a charm, so you could potentially just buy at celestial and no break it after the patch hits.
https://gyazo.com/a001060acf1829efe4dd7af6d904ffe6
Current AH divine's which are less than 35k
But excluding all of that, even if the price for archeum doubled, the cost to epic an erenor (better than t7 legendary) would be cheaper than a legendary t7 with the added cost only being applied to the erenor (even though it would goto the t7 too) And the cost to make a divine erenor is exponetionally cheaper than legendary t7 (literally a t1 legendary almost cost as much as the full divine erenor cost)
But even if the cost was more than t7 legendary (hypothetically), why would it matter if the weapons are not better? If people are worried about cost then just let the admins add the weapons and you dont have to make one. If the weapons are locked at either divine or epic then it wont change the balance of the game (because legendary t7 is better than divine erenor and mythic t7 is better than epic erenor) We already have gearlords on this server with either of those weapons, so again just locking erenor litterally does 0 harm to the server, and if it turns out to be cheaper to make them then it will only allows for less geared players to more cheaply gear up and close the gear gap (I.E something that is good)
Archeum requirements for crafting up items will nearly double, but production in the form of Auroria trees only increases by 30%, so the cost will go up. Archeum REQUIREMENTS might be pretty close to the same, but the market value will increase as Archeum is needed more in other areas, and supply does not increase to match with it. That being said, costs for Ayanads are going to go up. Yeah, they will remove RNG from the crafting, but material requirements are going to triple at every stage as a result, plus you'll need to regrade each time you want to go up the next tier. Costs will increase, and using current AH Divines as a baseline is a fruitless endeavor. Charcoal will still be a slight issue since requirements will change (unless they make crafting unchanged, but we don't know yet). Prices of items on retail increased with 3.5 because crafting costs increase, and even with Charcoal SUPPLY being promised of being unchanged, DEMAND has not been altered here as far as we know, and that's the problem.
Most of this server doesn't know how to make gold. There's a guy in-game who is proud of making a measly 700g a week, and a hundred others that are content with making even less than that, but all of them want to gear up. If demand in crafting increases, I have absolutely no idea how anyone can think this would mean lesser-geared players would be able to gear up and close the gear gap. Hell, even some of the whales on our server KNOW it's a bad idea and voiced their concerns as such because it means the gear gap will increase. History shows the gear gap increased with Erenor's release, and the only reason there wasn't a huge problem on retail was because they gave new players Soulforged gear on a regular basis which clocked them in at 4400 GS, while new players here are fucked with temporary 7-day Basic Obsidian at a whopping 2600 GS. I would love to know how there are still groups of people who look at retail and its plethora of players contributing to material supply and go "fewer players on this private server will make it so the opposite happens". We have a living, breathing, and historic example of what happened when Erenor dropped, and yet somehow people choose to look at it like some sort of fairy tale that can't happen here.
Your presumptions are high and you ignored my previous statements.
You assume Archean goes up, but we don’t know if the crafting changes will be added (presumably they won’t because Russia is not getting them)
But again none of that matters, if the cost is high don’t make one. You gave the example of retail, but retail did not have limited weapons.
If erenor were to be locked at divine or epic, then the balance of the server would not change. If it is cheaper to buy a legendary t7 then it is to make erenor, then people will just make those weapons (divine erenor is slightly worse than legendary anyways)
So it makes 0 sense that erenor would kill a server if the weapons are locked. IF there are weapons already in our current patch (legendary/mythic t7) that are stronger than their respective erenor types (divine/epic erenor) then why does bringing in locked erenor a change anything? It’s litterally just an alternative solution to achieveing weapons equivalents in the current patch.
So again, if it is more expensive just don’t make one, if it happens to be cheaper than it’ll just help players get weapons that fight in par with legendary or mythic t7 obsidians.
Let’s presume that divine erenor is exactly = t7 (it’s not) but if it is, then why wouldn’t you want another avenue to get gear that is equivalent. (If it gets locked at divine or epic)
Last edited:
You say "if it's more expensive, just don't make one" while saying it wouldn't increase the gear gap in a previous post. You're arguing against yourself. If it's more expensive, poor players WON'T make one, but richer players would. Richer players are already on the upper echelon of the gear gap, and unless they lock Erenor at a grade (which I doubt it), the gear gap will increase. It's not an alternative solution to achieving gear because it's more monetarily-demanding than the current ways to gear up. Giving us something to grind for similar to T1 Hiram is a better alternative than Erenor, because at least poor players can do some form of farming to compete. Erenor is just another gear type locked behind gold and crafting, which has a higher upper tier of damage than the average gear on the server, in a patch that requires more gold being spent in order to compete.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the message I'm reading from you is: "Poor players who don't make a lot of money can spend even more of the money they already don't make in order to craft a weapon they can't afford to make in order to then spend MORE money they don't make to level up the weapon they already can't financially support, and this will fix the gear gap problem because the rich players are already ahead so they won't do the same thing as poor players". Did I get that right?
You’re completely off base, I’ve said 100 times that the weapons should get locked. And just because something cost more = better. Again divine and epic erenor are equivalent to legendary and mythic t7. Adding those in quite litterally cannot heighten the year gap. The weapons in my opinion will be cheaper, but even if they aren’t it doesn’t matter because the highest tier weapon will not change (mythic t7 > epic erenor)
I’m completely f2p and I already have every mat available to make a divine erenor, meanwhile I would barely be breaking the gold to buy t1 legendary. You can say it’s not possible for the normal player hase to do that, but that’s irrelevant. Adding an avenue for equal gear that gear lords have is always a good thing.
Let’s put it like this. Removing cost completely, if the weapons are equal (legendary t7 = divine erenor and mythic t7 = epic erenor) then what is your issue of erenor being implemented and being locked at epic? If you can’t afford erenor you can make a t7, they are equal (well t7 slightly better) so what is your issue with them being added at a locked tier?
Last edited:
My issue is ONLY cost. The weapons WON'T be cheaper to make, because simple supply/demand. You can't, as a sane person, just deny something will happen differently than what we have already experienced. Live had significantly higher supply and moderate demand. This server is so young that demand for materials is significantly higher, and because we are only one server contributing to the AH the supply is greatly diminished in comparison. As a result, you have shit like Divine Obsidian weapons selling for 2 to 2.5 times what they were selling for on retail at this time in patch versions.
You can't just remove cost completely, because that's the problem. IDGAF if the stats are the same, it's the ways it can be acquired. If it costs me more to make an Epic Erenor than an Epic Obsidian, I'm not going to go the Erenor route. And no new player in their right mind would focus on trying to craft an Erenor over Obsidian unless a credit card was involved because Obsidian is infinitely easier to acquire than an Erenor just in terms of materials. That wall right there is the problem: The only group of people who would focus on Erenor are going to be the people who have significantly more money to do so. The gear gap would never shrink because new/poor players won't make the Erenor.
I'm not arguing against limiting Erenor. I'm arguing against the asinine notion that introducing Erenor will close the gear gap. It won't. Poor players will look at the mountain of shit it will take to make Erenor and rightly say "fuck that" and work on something more believably (and cheaply) achievable.
Sure things are more expensive on this server, but also you can easily make more gold on this server (4x labor regen)
But your notion that poor players will never afford erenor is crazy. Ive stated this already, but me (and at least 5 of my f2p friends) already have all the materials to make a divine erenor. And none of us could afford a legendary obsidian.
Even if archeum prices were to increase by double, and you were to double my calculated regrade cost, the price for divine erenor would still be cheaper than legendary t7. Significantly.
I can prove this within reasonable math (very quick semi-accurate). My archeum cost is calculated in 2 ways, 1 in pure archeum and 2 in weapons (illustrious and epheriums)
Pure archeum cost doubleing = 16k instead of 8k (increase of 8,000 gold)
Illustrious increasing to 150 per vs 100 per = 12000 gold instead of 8k gold (increase of 4k gold)
Epherium increasing to 1000 gold per vs 800g per = 34,000 gold instead of 27,000 (increase of 7k gold)
Total = 19k gold increase = 19k + my original cost of 180,000 gold = 200,000 gold VS the 300,000 gold to make legendary t7
This math excludes the cost increase for t7, lets calculate that
150g per wisp instead of 100g per wisp = 47,000 gold vs 31, 000 gold = 16,000 difference = 330,000 gold for t7 if archeum prices double
So, the new cost for divine erenor vs legendary t7 is 200,000 gold vs 330,000 gold (a difference of 130,000)
Divine erenor is VERY close to T7 legendary in terms of damage. But lets increase this to epic
Adding the 80k cost to divine > erenor we end up with 280,000 gold for epic erenor STILL 50,000 gold less than T7 legendary AND its a better weapon.
Now doubling my regrade cost would add another 25k gold to it, bring this down to epic erenor being 25,000g cheaper than legendary t7 while also being a better weapon.
Thats assuming all of that happens, we know by the way the admins run the server, if certain supplies end up to high of a price they will add new ways to get those items. So I expect that archeum will remain relatively the same, and my regrade cost absolutely 100% not double. Anyway i look at this the erenor is cheaper at divine and epic vs a legendary t7
Hell even if we double my intial cost for divine erenor (meaning everything doubles next patch, which it wont, but lets say it does) The cost still is the same for legendary t7 for relatively equal weapons. And thats assuming all the mats cost for erenor double and legendary t7 remain the same cost they are right now.
Last edited:
It costs significantly less than 11k to make a Divine Obsidian. Therefore by comparison, it takes significantly less than 300k to make a Legendary. My guildies have a couple of Legendaries under their belts at less than 30k in expenses. You're basing it off of AH price and not actual production price. You're doing calculations of the purchase price of all items involved while comparing to the purchase price of an admittedly inflated gold value. Your math is flawed because you're taking something into account while ignoring the other side of the coin. I'm not going to argue it further because it's literally speculation over future changes vs changes over future speculation. Neither of our points can be proven based on the fact that these admins CAN and have proven to be able to change certain aspects of the game for good. That being said, you're being incredibly optimistic about the market when this market is 95% more volatile AND inflated than retail's was. Labor regen may be boosted, but that's honestly irrelevant (and actually boosts MY talking point) because that just means there's theoretically more supply coming from the player base. And if there's an increased supply of materials coming from the player base and item costs on the market are still quadruple what they should be, then on a worst-case scenario perspective, Erenor will cost more gold than what you're saying.
Every talking point you're saying is "gold is valued like this, supply and demand will stay the same, poor people will afford it" when that's not the case at all. But again, we're arguing two different talking points that can't be proven right now. But just looking at history and marking up gold values to match while taking supply/demand differences into account, the higher gear scored players will be the most likely to endeavor into Erenor, not the low-GS/poor players and as you said previously: "if it's too expensive, don't make one". That's literally you admitting Erenor is NOT POSSIBLE for low-GS/poor players, but then flip around and say they can do it. You're arguing against yourself repeatedly. Good on you for being optimistic, I'm just being realistic.
Every talking point you're saying is "gold is valued like this, supply and demand will stay the same, poor people will afford it" when that's not the case at all. But again, we're arguing two different talking points that can't be proven right now. But just looking at history and marking up gold values to match while taking supply/demand differences into account, the higher gear scored players will be the most likely to endeavor into Erenor, not the low-GS/poor players and as you said previously: "if it's too expensive, don't make one". That's literally you admitting Erenor is NOT POSSIBLE for low-GS/poor players, but then flip around and say they can do it. You're arguing against yourself repeatedly. Good on you for being optimistic, I'm just being realistic.
Last edited:
Getting a legendary for 30k is not normal. Secondly even if you did you could turn around and sell it for 150,000+
My point about it being expensive went over your head. I clearly believe erenor is the much cheaper option, I am suggesting to you, that if you believe it to be expensive then don’t make one. I believe that they are inexpensive therefore I want them added.