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ArcheRage 4.0 (development-release info)

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Wyatt

Member
My tought on 4.0 buff system.

Everyone is talking about buffs beeing removed and well.. buffs that we have in 3.5 are made for 3.5 and previuos.
4.0 requires a rebalance as of people gearing up easyer.

Dawn Of Glory: From 15% to like 64 raw atk/pwr is a good change as:

Patch 3.5 - 800 raw attack get +120
Patch 4.0 - 1000 raw attack woud get +150
Patch 4.0 - 1000 raw attack get +64-74 (Fortuna Die applies to that)

Noone considers the same guy who had 800 atk in 3.5 probably gained a loooooooot more since gear becomes easyer.
A increase by Percentage is not viable anymore cause it would become too strong.
AKA new players stand no chance and just don't bother gearing up.

About the Toughness/Resilience from the Dawn Of Glory (who even uses focus one lol)
Well yes, people would become too tanky since the new changes in lunagems, so unless you want to watch 20 people trying to murder a tank for 30 minutes that's something to avoid.
On the other hand, everyone who is not a tank will be way more subject to be oneshot for the same changes, goblet will be removed but it's not yet the best time for it probably.

Assorted Ribs:
Lacking of stat addition is going to be massive removal, even tho the good thing is:
Ribs are going to combine Spellbook + Jujube Juice/Wine into a single buff so let's say jujube juice/win and spellbooks could be removed easily from the game without big issues.

Spellbook: Unstoppable Will: Not exactly needed, as written under "Assorted Ribs" they just get moved there..
It's a raw power increase and not even extreme huge.
Would compensate a lote (maybe too much) to the dawn of glory beeing removed yet not scaling as percentage.

Jujube Juice/Wine: Not such a big deal, would make PvE easyer, and add some HP. Refer to Assorted Ribs

Kingdom Shadow: Okay this is the big deal about 4.0
Removing Kingdom Shadow from the game is going to be very weird.
Example (average numbers):
Average Tank: 15'000 Def + 1800 = 16800 ---> 12% Gain
Melee DPS : 8'000 Def + 1800 = 9800 ----> 22% Gain
Mage DPS : 5'000 Def + 1800 = 6800 ----> 36% Gain

Assuming my math is correct, disadvantaged classes will have an higher gain in terms of raw defense, also, 1800 Def is going to be an higher damage reduction for who has less, given softcaps..
I'd normally be against making DPS classes too tanky since everyone picks to have more damage by reducing their defense, so it's something a dps is aware...
But 4.0 really increases damage dealt and gives little countermeasures.
What's going to happen is a melee can oneshot a mage and a mage can oneshot a melee in 4.0, Leaving Kingdom Shadow untouched may save a lot of lives (and prevent frustration).

Major Point of interest, potentially economy changing:

If buffs get actually removed, a lot of people who lives on top of land and cultivating materials and enjoy crafting complexity on buffs are getting a big "Fu** You cause that's why"

And noone wants to piss off crafters and farmers as major providers of materials.

No Crafters/Farmers -> Dead Economy.

And after seeds are kept purchaseable via silver in 3.5 and 3.0 to make it easyer to farmers to keep their jobs, i don't think this is the way we want to go.

FINAL TOUGHTS: Dawn of Glory Change is good and needed as % based buffs will become too strong.
Spellbooks and Jujube Juice is going to be applied to assorted ribs BUT assorted ribs current effect disappears.
Kingdom's Shadow: Needed.

Dawn of Glory i'd keep 4.0 version, so less work for devs.
I'd maintain Kingdom Shadow for sure OR add Defense buff to ribs. (easyer to keep kingdom's shadow)
i'd Also maintain Runes for the same reason of kingdom shadow.
Jujube Juice and Spellbook at this point are not a huge change since anyway are getting merged into ribs, so i'd add a conversion workbench for those into ribs in case the recipes are getting removed.


Everything on this would solve the issue with people asking either buffs get removed to everyone or noone.
And overall the only buff beeing unbalanced is the % Dawn of Glory wich is going to change to flat increase.

Edit: Please let's not consider incapability of people into picking gear and skills. one can't overcomplain about a tank beeing tanky or a dps dealing damage.
The game is good because it's not easy and requires dedication to aquire knowledge and make a good build, we are not playing minecraft.
 
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Karizi

New Member
How about real storms in the ocean? Would be very nice to see some actual weather kind of like the situation around the kraken but could crop up in random places. I know there's occasionally like a single thunder cloud but it's very underwhelming. Or bigger whirlpools would be neat too, like that suck you/your ship down to the bottom!
 

Thinking

Active Member
FINAL TOUGHTS: Dawn of Glory Change is good and needed as % based buffs will become too strong.
Spellbooks and Jujube Juice is going to be applied to assorted ribs BUT assorted ribs current effect disappears.
Kingdom's Shadow: Needed.

Dawn of Glory i'd keep 4.0 version, so less work for devs.
I'd maintain Kingdom Shadow for sure OR add Defense buff to ribs. (easyer to keep kingdom's shadow)
i'd Also maintain Runes for the same reason of kingdom shadow.
Jujube Juice and Spellbook at this point are not a huge change since anyway are getting merged into ribs, so i'd add a conversion workbench for those into ribs in case the recipes are getting removed.


Everything on this would solve the issue with people asking either buffs get removed to everyone or noone.
And overall the only buff beeing unbalanced is the % Dawn of Glory wich is going to change to flat increase.

Edit: Please let's not consider incapability of people into picking gear and skills. one can't overcomplain about a tank beeing tanky or a dps dealing damage.
The game is good because it's not easy and requires dedication to aquire knowledge and make a good build, we are not playing minecraft.
I think the biggest hurdle that the admins need to decide on when it comes to 4.0 is what to do about existing items that are no longer craftable in 4.0, but still usable in 4.0, which you touched on.

@ Admins:
In 4.0 things like kingdom shadow, unstoppable book, evasion gems, revive gems, etc... were no longer craftable, but players that stocked up on them could still use them even after the patch was released. I know players that are in the process of making 10's of thousands of kingdom shadows, evasion gems, things that are discontinued in 4.0.

The big problem isn't necessarily that these things are removed from crafting, but that the supply of them before 3.5 carries over to 4.0 and that they are still usable. People on the Live version of ArcheAge are still buying these old items, such as evasion and revive gems, for up to 7-8k gold EACH.

Keeping the items usable but deleting the crafting recipe is the WORST possible change, what either needs to happen is that you leave these recipes in the game, or you remove the recipes from the game and also make the existing items be able to be broken down into the mats they were made with.
 

Mandres

Member
Agreed. Everything that is no longer craftable needs to be converted to the new version, or its source materials. And you really should announce it soon to stop all the speculative stockpiling that's already going on.
 

Kezz

Active Member
I think the biggest hurdle that the admins need to decide on when it comes to 4.0 is what to do about existing items that are no longer craftable in 4.0, but still usable in 4.0, which you touched on.

@ Admins:
In 4.0 things like kingdom shadow, unstoppable book, evasion gems, revive gems, etc... were no longer craftable, but players that stocked up on them could still use them even after the patch was released. I know players that are in the process of making 10's of thousands of kingdom shadows, evasion gems, things that are discontinued in 4.0.

The big problem isn't necessarily that these things are removed from crafting, but that the supply of them before 3.5 carries over to 4.0 and that they are still usable. People on the Live version of ArcheAge are still buying these old items, such as evasion and revive gems, for up to 7-8k gold EACH.

Keeping the items usable but deleting the crafting recipe is the WORST possible change, what either needs to happen is that you leave these recipes in the game, or you remove the recipes from the game and also make the existing items be able to be broken down into the mats they were made with.
Keeping the old potions, but deleting the recipe was something personally requested by Trion to XL because people were complaining about the amount of potions they would have had deleted out of their inventory. I'm not sure where our patches originate from, but this was not the case on the Korean server.

I do agree though. So many people loaded up on sooo many pots that they were still plentiful even when I quit right before the 5.0 release.

I think we should either keep the crafting recipe, or warn everybody that the old potions will become obsolete or converted into a new type of potion.
 

trapwhre02

Well-Known Member
if we keep old potions, then unite the effects of various ones into a single item. This way we aren't forced to buff up using 10 different items, ending up with too many active buffs and having stuff like zeal get cancelled because of it.
e.g. Jujube Sparkling Wine & Jujube Juice into one item that contains the buffs of both.
 
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Crossi

New Member
My suggestion for 4.0:

Keep 3.5

4.0 is bad
4.5 is worse
5.0 is trash

Please learn from Trion/XL's mistakes and don't go any further. Each subsequent release damages the game more and more.
Thats it.

if any future patch (like hiram crap etc) will cause that i need to switch my gear, i will quit instantly :)
 

stronghart

Member
Thats it.

if any future patch (like hiram crap etc) will cause that i need to switch my gear, i will quit instantly :)
For me 3.5 Ruined Archeage, AR team made it less disgusting than XL Updates with the Nerf on Erenor set, so i think they will make 4.0 and Beyond "less crap".


Although i want Role-play content from 4.0 ASAP.
 

Overwerk

New Member
Can we have a list of changes that you have planned to do UNTIL NOW? And of course what you are planning, and thoughts. @Admin.
 

Sjinderson

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Technical Assistant
Can we have a list of changes that you have planned to do UNTIL NOW? And of course what you are planning, and thoughts. @Admin.
There are no planned changes yet. That is why this discussion exists so people can voice their opinions and we can decide what to do.
It is too early to start locking in changes
 

Flipsy

Active Member
There are no planned changes yet. That is why this discussion exists so people can voice their opinions and we can decide what to do.
It is too early to start locking in changes
Ravenspine discussion was ignored. Kraken Ink Sac discussion was ignored. What changes will we discuss and what opinions will we voice that will ACTUALLY be listened to at this point?
 

Sjinderson

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Technical Assistant
Ravenspine discussion was not ignored. The discussion was about changes to it.

The majority wanted either reduced immunity, the immunity to be an active skill or a combination of the 2.

They got reduced immunity duration which was the second most requested to changing the activation which the devs did not want to do.

For the kraken thread people wanted more methods so we provided more mthods. The first method was added as it was the majority vote. The second method was not added and a 3rd option at staff discretion was added that gave a opportunity to others. This alternate variation to the second option was done as the second option was easily blockable by even the smarlest amount of people.
In the end we achieved what was asked of us. Make them cheaper.
So we increased the supply. We never forced a set price or controlled who can get them.
Arguably it has increased the value for kraken has increased as now the price which the sacs have sold ranges around 25000 that is per inc sac.

It is not that peoples opinion is ignored. It is the changes you want were not the chosen changes.


As for any changes we are thinking of for 4.0 right now it would only be the gem changes. Even while we are so far away many have voiced frustrations about the removal of many gems which do not have a 4.0 variant.
This is not to confirm anything as it is too early. But we will more than likely leave the current gems in the game and update their recipe to the new single type of lunarite. Or create 4.0 variants of them with adjuated stats. The second one is the less lilely route but an option
 

Sparkle

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Closer to 4.0 release, some time in September, we'll start a separate thread for the 4.0 gem changes only to separate this topic from the others 4.0 changes. Players will be able to check what are the actual gem changes in 4.0 are and confirm what they think about the change and what custom changes to it they think are needed.
 

Overwerk

New Member
Well guys, as soon you have a bunch of changes that you think to introduce, open a new topic and write them down, this will help us to sort some ideas and less confusion around.
 

vulgrr

Active Member
same same ;-; it's why I quit on live too :c
This is an incredibly poor mentality to have.

Why does everyone balk at progression for the new stuff?

As in real life, things would stagnate without progression.

You work an 8-5 job in 2001. You save up 3000 dollars to buy a new computer. Computer works great for 8 years, but starts to show age and not be able to run the new stuff as well.

You have the same 8-5 job in 2009. New computer hardware comes out. It's also cheaper than what you paid for in 2001. Do you rage quit your job because now the new computer hardware is better than your old stuff? Or do you put in work to get the new stuff?

Life is about obsolescence. Things have a limited lifetime. Nothing lasts forever.

Terrible ideas also need to be revised and phased out over time. That's what is attempting to be done with archeage via the patches 3.5 and newer. Better systems. Some were failures. Some were good. New lunagems are good, for the most part, and less RNG. Your hard work is actually rewarded now.

I hate that everyone complained about erenor and got it nerfed, and now complaints are already starting about hiram 2 patches before it is even released. Gear *needs* to progress. And if you can literally put in the time to gather it through sheer effort instead of whaling, why is this an issue? Hiram balances scales, more so than even erenor did. Erenor is difficult to get only because of the sheer volume of materials needed. Hiram just requires a lot of time farming mobs and some quests. The only complaint I can find for it is the fact that the areas you can get it in are likely to be teeming with guilds trying to wall everyone they can out of the gear in a "me first" attempt. Once case where being solo can definitely be detrimental to your experiences.

It was pretty much well known this server would progress to future patches as soon as 3.5 was announced and dropped. Yet people put in ungodly whaling and in some cases actual effort to getting current gear. And now complaints are out. That's like smashing your face into a brick wall on purpose then complaining it hurt when you did it.
 

Sophie

Member
In 4.0 on Live, you could no longer craft Kingdoms and the other listed buffs. However, the ones we already had were still viable.

Hiram destroyed crafting. It negated all of the work players did prior to Hiram. It made it easy for players to gear without the expense and HARD WORK required to craft better and better gear. Hiram turns the game into a grind fest and removes some of the diversity that makes this game so special.

Thus, the comparison to new technology is not exactly valid. If you get a better and newer computer, it is a more accurate comparison to to us crafting better gear. You work hard, you save, you get better stuff. The comparison would be far more valid if you suggested that free computers would be distributed to anyone who wanted one. I'm not a proponent of "everyone gets a trophy or it isn't fair" bullshit.

This game has been special because you have to work your ass off - all over this virtual game world and participate in a myriad of content to obtain the items needed to craft better and better gear. You have to work with others to attain items and achieve goals. Friendships and alliances are formed. They are necessary to succeed. (I am not including those who swipe in this conversation). When Hiram came, people spent the day grinding and still do. It absolutely removes a major part of the game and one that makes it so special to many of us. It makes it a more solitary experience (although of course you can grind w a group).

Let Hiram stay in Live. Live no longer even looks like the game we love and the game that brought us here. I understand that gamers want more and more new content. And I understand that games evolve to hold our interest. But I can tell you from first hand experience that Hiram will make AR just another Korean grind fest.

Yes there is a gear gap. But it is not insurmountable. It is the fun of getting there that makes this game so amazing.

And for those of you with no interest in crafting your gear and look forward to the endless grind for free stuff, please do not waste your time throwing insults or flaming me - these are my well informed opinions.
 
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vulgrr

Active Member
There is still hard work required for hiram. It is just a different kind of hard work. Is it as hard as getting through an RNG grind wall? Yes, and no, because RNG is RNG, and by the very nature of RNG, some will progress while others will be stuck forever.

I personally crafted most of my gear, with just a couple of pieces bought back in 2.9/3.0, before transmuters were a thing. Did I complain about erenor invalidating that RNG aspect, or being stronger than obsidian? Nope. I adapted to the new meta.

The analogy stands. Hard work in the past should not be used to influence things in the future if a change is to come along that adds new content, even if that content changes up the meta for acquisition or quality of items.

If anything, current gear should be buffed to match or equal hiram, or provide alternative stats that different builds could use. That could ensure diversity remains, and give people other options.

But lets not stagnate in the past. That has never, ever worked well.
 

prego_kamata

Active Member
Dual wield is considered equivalent depending on gear score. It doesn't matter if you're 7-8k. If you're 4k dual wield vs a 4k 2H, then the result is the same. I'm assuming now that you're not familiar with pvp and gear results. Thank you for your opinion, but if you disagree and seem to be so uneducated by classes and gear, then clearly your opinion is irrelevant. Not trying to be mean... just take it with a grain of salt. This IS something that needs to be looked into
Seems to me that its you the" uneducated about classes and gear " as an 4k DW Archer i dont remember to ever have won a 1v1 against 4k 2h Dark runner regardless of the fact that i can get more crit dmg in % i have only 3/4 active>instant combat skill against a class like DR that have about 10 active>instant combat skills with multiples stuns and knockdowns or mages that have also about 10 active combat skills that are mix between instants and ranged with DOT"s what you are suggesting with your big teared little cry here is to remove all classes except 2h DR because it will be the only playable class
 
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Yolobro

New Member
I would like to suggest that you do not waste the hard time put into Mistsong Summit gear. Would also like to suggest that you leave the skill system the way it currently is. XL had a bad habit of making your hard work obsolete. The XL Hiram system requires you to put about 5k labor every day into the gear. IDK what kind of effect that will have on your version of the game but it is very extreme. It would be a good thing if you didn't remove Obsidian gear.
 
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