Ain’t cherry picking anything I gave you an example of better runs that you could do in half the amount of time and produce the same amount of gold. Which you stated above that you wanted. You just want safe cozy runs and want better amount for it. Ok so let’s say they did approve this why would any one do a risky route? These measures are in place to prevent this from happening. It’s a risk vs reward system and you want to take the risk factor out and just want more reward. I say this is a really bad idea. If you want to carebear that’s fine but the % rate maybe low for some routes and I thinks that’s fine as it promotes people to go out for more risky runs. This is the last on the matter I’m gonna post about because my head hurts from running into this brick wall all day.
The economy and trade pack runs
- Thread starter Whisper
- Start date
Improving pack runs wouldn't completely kill fishing.
Mentioned above:
Fishing is high profit, high time investment, requires little labor. If you want you can fish all day long.
Now coin purses could be similar, or a variation of that. Medium profit, medium time investment, medium labor.
The thing about coin purses are, farm speed can be increased as you get better gear. I think Taylorswift said they make 900g? in 30min?
This isn't the situation with pack running, Ahrimar Fert will always be 342g/hr rather I've been playing 1 month or 1 year.
I'm using Ahrimar Fert as an example but it's near the very peak/high end of what can be done with Commerce currently.
Halcy Wheat Biscuits or Gwen Apple Pies are much much less.
Then we get back to what I'm trying to propose:
Pack runs high profit, medium time, high labor. You're bankrupting your labor for the day.
The idea I'm interested in is a large material sink for the economy to bring back value to life skills.
If Commerce eats 100k grain an hour, then grain prices go up, more farmers, more options.
At the current rates, a person can produce their own, and the market is poor. It still sells of course, but it's poor.
Maybe my own suggestion needs another perspective, like @axydus 's, but the general idea remains the same.
@Frontbutt well you're the one stuck on carebear runs when I list Ahrimar Fert and Boat Runs.
I also was suggesting a fix to the imbalance of distance > profit on runs like Airrain Rock, there is no reason Rock should be less profit than White Arden, they're both safe zones. Rather a route is "carebear" or not, it still takes time, if you spend 30min doing a run, it should reward an adequate amount for that time and a bonus for extra risk.
Mentioned above:
Fishing is high profit, high time investment, requires little labor. If you want you can fish all day long.
Now coin purses could be similar, or a variation of that. Medium profit, medium time investment, medium labor.
The thing about coin purses are, farm speed can be increased as you get better gear. I think Taylorswift said they make 900g? in 30min?
This isn't the situation with pack running, Ahrimar Fert will always be 342g/hr rather I've been playing 1 month or 1 year.
I'm using Ahrimar Fert as an example but it's near the very peak/high end of what can be done with Commerce currently.
Halcy Wheat Biscuits or Gwen Apple Pies are much much less.
Then we get back to what I'm trying to propose:
Pack runs high profit, medium time, high labor. You're bankrupting your labor for the day.
The idea I'm interested in is a large material sink for the economy to bring back value to life skills.
If Commerce eats 100k grain an hour, then grain prices go up, more farmers, more options.
At the current rates, a person can produce their own, and the market is poor. It still sells of course, but it's poor.
Maybe my own suggestion needs another perspective, like @axydus 's, but the general idea remains the same.
@Frontbutt well you're the one stuck on carebear runs when I list Ahrimar Fert and Boat Runs.
I also was suggesting a fix to the imbalance of distance > profit on runs like Airrain Rock, there is no reason Rock should be less profit than White Arden, they're both safe zones. Rather a route is "carebear" or not, it still takes time, if you spend 30min doing a run, it should reward an adequate amount for that time and a bonus for extra risk.
xkf2
Active Member
Who the hell is buying cheap mats like ground grain to do trade packs... Make it yourself and it is so much better...
Then on the flip side it is absolutely garbage to buy and sell the more expensive/rarer mats for trade packs...
Who is buying cheap materials to do trade runs? People who want to spend their labor on commerce instead of farming.
What's clear is, farming and gathering market is saturated from half growth time, high labor regen. Would you dump all your labor every day on farming grain and that was your primary source of income? No, you'd get ~250g a day if you could sell your yield reliably. Sure everybody loves half growth time and high labor regen, but that means the products are less valuable.
A simple comparison is grain vs pearls. Grain is super easy to produce mass quantities of, it's 2s/ea. Pearls are pretty tough to produce, they're 2g/ea.
Basic supply/demand.
A solution to this, to help farming, and gathering, and logging and the harvesting professions is create a higher demand, by allowing more to be consumed per hour.
Scale trade packs to take 1000 grain instead of 25!
What is the argument for ArcheRage having half growth time, and high labor regen? These effect the economy. Maybe in the beginning it was helpful in creating a new economy, now it's just compounding an existing problem: inflation.
We can fix this by making BIG trade packs.
A current Ahrimar Fert pack takes 25 produce, 25 grain, 20 meat, 50 flowers. and it rewards 19g~ at 130% in the current market after costs are removed from profit.
That is 130 labor before redux and ~30 minutes for 19g from a single pack.
That is the straight math.
Want to take a Larder? OK.
An Ahrimar larder (lets not count the cost of owning land, and setting up the larder, and the 1.5day growth time, and the trade route timing to secure a trade)
Just to set up the larder before choosing your mats, it's 5g and 65 labor before redux in the current economy.
Lets go with Cheese: 50 milk and 30 lemons, that is 6.9g in materials.
So right now you're paying 11.9g and 65+90? labor to get the larder pack.
Okay that is worth 33g ONLY FROM AHRIMAR. You do this same recipe in any other zone, it's 28g all the way down to 18g from Marianople.
How many people are running Marianople larders?
Taking the absolute BEST rate of an AHRIMAR 130% larder you get 33g-12g or 21g net profit for all that investment. Alot more than fert, which makes 19g.
It's a higher labor cost too. And bigger risk.
If you're doing White Arden Larders, that is 20g - 12g because it's the same material cost, and the same labor cost. So you're making 8g net profit from the same thing.
Meanwhile a White Arden fert pack is 17g - 4g cost or 13g at 130% profit.
Why? Just why?
So, there is the math.
Here is some more.
In the current economy, one lord coin is worth 120g.
You can trade 1 lord coin to get the seeds that will grow into 1-1.3ish Auroria trade packs.
These Auroria trade packs are worth 30-50g.
So you're paying 250 labor to harvest the seeds (we won't count the time and land required to grow them)
and one lord coin valued at 120g to make a single 30g trade pack if you pick a zone like Heedmar, or 50g if you go with Calmlands.
There is no way that is worth anything at all. That is Auroria trade packs, right now, in this economy, on ArcheRage.
What's clear is, farming and gathering market is saturated from half growth time, high labor regen. Would you dump all your labor every day on farming grain and that was your primary source of income? No, you'd get ~250g a day if you could sell your yield reliably. Sure everybody loves half growth time and high labor regen, but that means the products are less valuable.
A simple comparison is grain vs pearls. Grain is super easy to produce mass quantities of, it's 2s/ea. Pearls are pretty tough to produce, they're 2g/ea.
Basic supply/demand.
A solution to this, to help farming, and gathering, and logging and the harvesting professions is create a higher demand, by allowing more to be consumed per hour.
Scale trade packs to take 1000 grain instead of 25!
What is the argument for ArcheRage having half growth time, and high labor regen? These effect the economy. Maybe in the beginning it was helpful in creating a new economy, now it's just compounding an existing problem: inflation.
We can fix this by making BIG trade packs.
A current Ahrimar Fert pack takes 25 produce, 25 grain, 20 meat, 50 flowers. and it rewards 19g~ at 130% in the current market after costs are removed from profit.
That is 130 labor before redux and ~30 minutes for 19g from a single pack.
That is the straight math.
Want to take a Larder? OK.
An Ahrimar larder (lets not count the cost of owning land, and setting up the larder, and the 1.5day growth time, and the trade route timing to secure a trade)
Just to set up the larder before choosing your mats, it's 5g and 65 labor before redux in the current economy.
Lets go with Cheese: 50 milk and 30 lemons, that is 6.9g in materials.
So right now you're paying 11.9g and 65+90? labor to get the larder pack.
Okay that is worth 33g ONLY FROM AHRIMAR. You do this same recipe in any other zone, it's 28g all the way down to 18g from Marianople.
How many people are running Marianople larders?
Taking the absolute BEST rate of an AHRIMAR 130% larder you get 33g-12g or 21g net profit for all that investment. Alot more than fert, which makes 19g.
It's a higher labor cost too. And bigger risk.
If you're doing White Arden Larders, that is 20g - 12g because it's the same material cost, and the same labor cost. So you're making 8g net profit from the same thing.
Meanwhile a White Arden fert pack is 17g - 4g cost or 13g at 130% profit.
Why? Just why?
So, there is the math.
Here is some more.
In the current economy, one lord coin is worth 120g.
You can trade 1 lord coin to get the seeds that will grow into 1-1.3ish Auroria trade packs.
These Auroria trade packs are worth 30-50g.
So you're paying 250 labor to harvest the seeds (we won't count the time and land required to grow them)
and one lord coin valued at 120g to make a single 30g trade pack if you pick a zone like Heedmar, or 50g if you go with Calmlands.
There is no way that is worth anything at all. That is Auroria trade packs, right now, in this economy, on ArcheRage.
Last edited:
xkf2
Active Member
Again,
Who the hell is buying such dirt cheap materials off the AH to do packs....
You are presenting a false binary when you say "People who want to spend their labor on commerce instead of farming."
The large labor pool of this server even in the current state means that you have the LABOR FREEDOM to pursue spending labor under BOTH proficiencies,
Farming/Gathering and Commerce, all while maintaining a decent profit margin.
In doing so you become more and more self sufficient in BOTH as your proficiency level rises... farming becomes cheaper and cheaper
As a result, you are less likely to rely on purchasing materials from other players because that is a waste...
In turn your Commerce gets more efficient as well
Unlike on retail where you would have to hyper focus into one proficiency in order to be effective.
and IDK about you but I like having such freedom to not have to rely on someone else or some other market
it is nice to be self-sufficient...
As a starting player, yes, maybe it is "worth" buying materials of AH since you do not have as much lee-way in terms of labor to grow stuff yourself...
But as a starting playing you don't have the gold reserves to buy materials from the AH... so you ... grow stuff yourself xDDD
Just a feed back loop of becoming self-sufficient in the end...
Then might we add that increasing materials cost of tradepacks will make it close to impossible for these new ppl to get started from a "buying the stuff of the AH" perspective...
The market for such cheap materials is not saturated JUST because of high labor pool
It is saturated as a result of the various choices that players have made in the last 2 years resulting in many being self sufficient
Ask anyone in this thread
"would you care to post a screenshot of your proficiency levels"
and I'm sure you will see that we don't need to rely or use the AH at all to get materials for pack runs... It would be a waste...
This is especially true of such dirt cheap materials as Ground Grain, Dried Flowers, Ground Meat, and Chopped Produce used in the oh so dear Fertilizer Packs...
But just off THOSE materials alone you are claiming that Farming and Gathering is dead
????
That is kind of insulting to people who are in those proficiencies and making good bank from selling more than just those low tier Ground Grain, Dried Flowers, Ground Meat, and Chopped Produce etc...
farming/gathering is not dead at all you just need to know what to grow, what to sell, what is a good price and so on rather than... trying to offload one product you have in excess...................................................
All the regional packs require much more specialised materials... Larders too... HMM wonder what sells good
Like you are asking for 40x increase in tradepack cost IN TERMS OF GROUND GRAIN ALONE per pack...
Okay, that's fine
but all you keep talking about is ferts
So ferts is gonna have increased the Ground Grain,
what would you do to Dried Flowers, Meat, Produce... Would they also increase just as drastically???
1000 Ground Grain, 2000 Dried Flowers, 800 Ground Meat, 1000 Chopped Produce... per pack?????
If you do not change those amounts as well it would not be fair to those professions
but now you stuck with a stupidly expensive pack that does not hand in for any more gold/resource than the current one??
T_T that would feel miserable
Then even making the case to only change it for the regional specialty packs (i.e. NON-FERTS)
That would be stupidly expensive for everyone invovled... Especially if the gold on hand-in was not increased dramatically... but there is another problem with that..... (see later)
So what next
Larder is 300(0) Lemons and 500(0) Milk for one cheese pack ???????
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Earlier in the thread it was made it out as though it was a BAD thing to have preloaded oneself with materials from their self sufficiency
I would say, this is not so. Preloading means that you ... now have a backlog of materials to use on your later packs....
and you can indeed hyper focus on spending labor into Commerce just like you want on those days that you don't need to harvest anything...
To such players who have built up self-sufficiency...
Increasing materials cost to craft packs, your so called "big pack" will only make it less attractive to purchase the materials from other players via AH or Trade...
The change would only work to hurt ppl who are starting out more than the established ppl
Furthermore, you keep talking about the numbers and details of example trade runs and elsewhere complained of "markets getting crashed due to player delivering high volume of packs" or something along those lines...
There are so many runs to choose from yet you are HYPERFOCUSING into a few "meta" trade runs, then simulataneously complaining "OH THE PERCENT ON THOSE IS ALWAYS SO LOW"
"120%"
Funny... that's already 20% more than you would normally be allowed... yet you consider this a "crashed" route... When the payout is still somewhat decent...
This is not a good mindset to have - by hyperfocusing on a few routes you close yourself to the opportunities presented to do other trade-runs.
As such, if the "meta" route has "crashed" that makes using other trade routes more profitable/viable.
This is the whole point of the percentage system... to balance out activity among other regions and trade routes...
However what you want is to... have the meta trade routes become MORE META, by making both recovery rate of percent higher, and, making the packs crafts COST even more --> Not worth doing non-meta route if packs cost 40x higher !!!!!
So then that will make doing the META route more important than ever before...
That is completely counter to the other thing that is being asked for in this thread,
which is to BUFF the non-meta routes that you give in all your examples.
Except that balacing mechanic is ALREADY in the game in the form of the changing percentages on hand in!
It is a self-regulating system!
The only thing stopping people like you from doing trade runs is you only want to run the "META" trade run when there are in fact MANY more opportunities and trade routes that exist... You just can't always use the META ones.... makes things more interesting
Everyhting that is being asked for does not make sense all put together..
You want higher recovery rate to stop "crashing" of market
You want more packs that cost more to make to stimulate farming/gathering....
You want to diminish the prevelance of "meta" routes by buffing others...
Each of these things can with very little theorycrafting be demonstrated to NOT WORK IN TANDEM...
THOUGH
I DO AGREE
that there is an imbalance in the payout amounts of certain routes... you have written of many examples already...
Those should be modified SLIGHTLY to balance the time vs reward ratio
but, for the most part the system lets you do what you want with it if you have a bit of planning in advance and don't go all in on one pack type
and are WILLING TO BE FLEXIBLE
Further, we are even lucky that the devs have kept the 3.0 trading system for us in addition to all the cargos... That made the trade pack system not feel "awful" compared to cargos.
And I'm not sure why you even bring up those trash Auroria packs...
we should note that even before Erenor came out such packs was not worth the it at all...
LC is only worth so much right now because everyone is saving/selling/using for Erenor items... And till everyone is saturated with those or better in their inventory, the price of LC will never change and those packs will always be awful to do...
Who the hell is buying such dirt cheap materials off the AH to do packs....
You are presenting a false binary when you say "People who want to spend their labor on commerce instead of farming."
The large labor pool of this server even in the current state means that you have the LABOR FREEDOM to pursue spending labor under BOTH proficiencies,
Farming/Gathering and Commerce, all while maintaining a decent profit margin.
In doing so you become more and more self sufficient in BOTH as your proficiency level rises... farming becomes cheaper and cheaper
As a result, you are less likely to rely on purchasing materials from other players because that is a waste...
In turn your Commerce gets more efficient as well
Unlike on retail where you would have to hyper focus into one proficiency in order to be effective.
and IDK about you but I like having such freedom to not have to rely on someone else or some other market
it is nice to be self-sufficient...
As a starting player, yes, maybe it is "worth" buying materials of AH since you do not have as much lee-way in terms of labor to grow stuff yourself...
But as a starting playing you don't have the gold reserves to buy materials from the AH... so you ... grow stuff yourself xDDD
Just a feed back loop of becoming self-sufficient in the end...
Then might we add that increasing materials cost of tradepacks will make it close to impossible for these new ppl to get started from a "buying the stuff of the AH" perspective...
The market for such cheap materials is not saturated JUST because of high labor pool
It is saturated as a result of the various choices that players have made in the last 2 years resulting in many being self sufficient
Ask anyone in this thread
"would you care to post a screenshot of your proficiency levels"
and I'm sure you will see that we don't need to rely or use the AH at all to get materials for pack runs... It would be a waste...
This is especially true of such dirt cheap materials as Ground Grain, Dried Flowers, Ground Meat, and Chopped Produce used in the oh so dear Fertilizer Packs...
But just off THOSE materials alone you are claiming that Farming and Gathering is dead
????That is kind of insulting to people who are in those proficiencies and making good bank from selling more than just those low tier Ground Grain, Dried Flowers, Ground Meat, and Chopped Produce etc...
farming/gathering is not dead at all you just need to know what to grow, what to sell, what is a good price and so on rather than... trying to offload one product you have in excess...................................................
All the regional packs require much more specialised materials... Larders too... HMM wonder what sells good
Like you are asking for 40x increase in tradepack cost IN TERMS OF GROUND GRAIN ALONE per pack...
Okay, that's fine
but all you keep talking about is ferts
So ferts is gonna have increased the Ground Grain,
what would you do to Dried Flowers, Meat, Produce... Would they also increase just as drastically???
1000 Ground Grain, 2000 Dried Flowers, 800 Ground Meat, 1000 Chopped Produce... per pack
?????If you do not change those amounts as well it would not be fair to those professions
but now you stuck with a stupidly expensive pack that does not hand in for any more gold/resource than the current one??
T_T that would feel miserable
Then even making the case to only change it for the regional specialty packs (i.e. NON-FERTS)
That would be stupidly expensive for everyone invovled... Especially if the gold on hand-in was not increased dramatically... but there is another problem with that..... (see later)
So what next
Larder is 300(0) Lemons and 500(0) Milk for one cheese pack ???????
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Earlier in the thread it was made it out as though it was a BAD thing to have preloaded oneself with materials from their self sufficiency
I would say, this is not so. Preloading means that you ... now have a backlog of materials to use on your later packs....
and you can indeed hyper focus on spending labor into Commerce just like you want on those days that you don't need to harvest anything...
To such players who have built up self-sufficiency...
Increasing materials cost to craft packs, your so called "big pack" will only make it less attractive to purchase the materials from other players via AH or Trade...
The change would only work to hurt ppl who are starting out more than the established ppl
Furthermore, you keep talking about the numbers and details of example trade runs and elsewhere complained of "markets getting crashed due to player delivering high volume of packs" or something along those lines...
There are so many runs to choose from yet you are HYPERFOCUSING into a few "meta" trade runs, then simulataneously complaining "OH THE PERCENT ON THOSE IS ALWAYS SO LOW"
"120%"
Funny... that's already 20% more than you would normally be allowed... yet you consider this a "crashed" route... When the payout is still somewhat decent...
This is not a good mindset to have - by hyperfocusing on a few routes you close yourself to the opportunities presented to do other trade-runs.
As such, if the "meta" route has "crashed" that makes using other trade routes more profitable/viable.
This is the whole point of the percentage system... to balance out activity among other regions and trade routes...
However what you want is to... have the meta trade routes become MORE META, by making both recovery rate of percent higher, and, making the packs crafts COST even more --> Not worth doing non-meta route if packs cost 40x higher !!!!!
So then that will make doing the META route more important than ever before...
That is completely counter to the other thing that is being asked for in this thread,
which is to BUFF the non-meta routes that you give in all your examples.
Except that balacing mechanic is ALREADY in the game in the form of the changing percentages on hand in!
It is a self-regulating system!
The only thing stopping people like you from doing trade runs is you only want to run the "META" trade run when there are in fact MANY more opportunities and trade routes that exist... You just can't always use the META ones.... makes things more interesting
Everyhting that is being asked for does not make sense all put together..
You want higher recovery rate to stop "crashing" of market
You want more packs that cost more to make to stimulate farming/gathering....
You want to diminish the prevelance of "meta" routes by buffing others...
Each of these things can with very little theorycrafting be demonstrated to NOT WORK IN TANDEM...
THOUGH
I DO AGREE
that there is an imbalance in the payout amounts of certain routes... you have written of many examples already...
Those should be modified SLIGHTLY to balance the time vs reward ratio
but, for the most part the system lets you do what you want with it if you have a bit of planning in advance and don't go all in on one pack type
and are WILLING TO BE FLEXIBLE
Further, we are even lucky that the devs have kept the 3.0 trading system for us in addition to all the cargos... That made the trade pack system not feel "awful" compared to cargos.
And I'm not sure why you even bring up those trash Auroria packs...
we should note that even before Erenor came out such packs was not worth the it at all...
LC is only worth so much right now because everyone is saving/selling/using for Erenor items... And till everyone is saturated with those or better in their inventory, the price of LC will never change and those packs will always be awful to do...
I usually write large posts, in the sea of ideas, some miscommunication might happen.
To be clear:
Aurora packs were mentioned because Frontbutt suggested they were a viable alternative.
They are not.
ArcheRage has half growth time, x4 labor regen, custom ultramass processing. These save time processing, save time and land growing, and create an abundance of materials.
ArcheRage needs BIG trade packs with this.
If the idea of x4 labor regen is because we're only limited to a single account, well then how is freighter trains with alts handled? We can't buy the follow ticket. We can't make alt accounts to transport a large quantity of packs.
Scaling all packs to require x4 the resources means we're getting those extra accounts freighter following behind.
Scaling all packs to require x4 the resources means we can consume at a rate adjusted with the increased production.
Increasing the market % rate regeneration means the server can allow more packs to be turned in per hour before it's unworthwhile to do so.
The buzzword here is "inflation".
We have an abundance of materials from these boosted rates.
And we have an abundance of gold because the server has aged.
19g for a trade pack is alot of money on a new server.
It's not on an older server.
Commerce's ceiling is too low.
Imagine if gear was capped at Obsidian T1 Arcane.
That's commerce.
By making BIG packs you raise commerce's ceiling.
Maybe it could be tiered as someone suggested earlier in the thread.
Tier 1 is normal pack.
Tier 2 is x4 pack.
Tier 3 is x10 or however large you want the ceiling to be.
When I discuss Fert, that's just the example pack I'm choosing to discuss, I am referring to all packs.
Let's talk about Gwenonid Apple Pies, now of course because I picked a "safe zone recipe", there will be discussion of safety vs risk. That's diverting from the real topic.
Apple Pies are: 50 produce 30 apples, they're 14g I believe.
If we use the Tier 3 recipe, that's 500 produce, 300 apples, and 140g.
The argument this would hurt new players fails here. They have access to the x1 recipe. If anything this would help new players because now their wagon can hold effectively 40 packs instead of 4. Helping them grow into a freighter.
Those materials aren't endless, this isn't fishing or coin purse farming, they have to come from somewhere, if pack runs are consuming 3000 apples in 20 minutes, all that empty land is goina start filling up with apple trees, gatherers will be able to sell the product, or pack runners can cut a portion of their own labor to grow their own.
That is what I meant above. I know many pack runners who choose not to grow their own materials because why waste the labor doing so, save the labor for commerce. It's the same reason some people choose to take free pre-made packs from kark instead of creating their own.
---
I think we're in agreement that some routes need nerfed, some need buffed, but all need rebalanced.
Now the post is getting long winded again and the clarity might be lost so I'll end with those points.
What's the argument against them?
To be clear:
Aurora packs were mentioned because Frontbutt suggested they were a viable alternative.
They are not.
ArcheRage has half growth time, x4 labor regen, custom ultramass processing. These save time processing, save time and land growing, and create an abundance of materials.
ArcheRage needs BIG trade packs with this.
If the idea of x4 labor regen is because we're only limited to a single account, well then how is freighter trains with alts handled? We can't buy the follow ticket. We can't make alt accounts to transport a large quantity of packs.
Scaling all packs to require x4 the resources means we're getting those extra accounts freighter following behind.
Scaling all packs to require x4 the resources means we can consume at a rate adjusted with the increased production.
Increasing the market % rate regeneration means the server can allow more packs to be turned in per hour before it's unworthwhile to do so.
The buzzword here is "inflation".
We have an abundance of materials from these boosted rates.
And we have an abundance of gold because the server has aged.
19g for a trade pack is alot of money on a new server.
It's not on an older server.
Commerce's ceiling is too low.
Imagine if gear was capped at Obsidian T1 Arcane.
That's commerce.
By making BIG packs you raise commerce's ceiling.
Maybe it could be tiered as someone suggested earlier in the thread.
Tier 1 is normal pack.
Tier 2 is x4 pack.
Tier 3 is x10 or however large you want the ceiling to be.
When I discuss Fert, that's just the example pack I'm choosing to discuss, I am referring to all packs.
Let's talk about Gwenonid Apple Pies, now of course because I picked a "safe zone recipe", there will be discussion of safety vs risk. That's diverting from the real topic.
Apple Pies are: 50 produce 30 apples, they're 14g I believe.
If we use the Tier 3 recipe, that's 500 produce, 300 apples, and 140g.
The argument this would hurt new players fails here. They have access to the x1 recipe. If anything this would help new players because now their wagon can hold effectively 40 packs instead of 4. Helping them grow into a freighter.
Those materials aren't endless, this isn't fishing or coin purse farming, they have to come from somewhere, if pack runs are consuming 3000 apples in 20 minutes, all that empty land is goina start filling up with apple trees, gatherers will be able to sell the product, or pack runners can cut a portion of their own labor to grow their own.
That is what I meant above. I know many pack runners who choose not to grow their own materials because why waste the labor doing so, save the labor for commerce. It's the same reason some people choose to take free pre-made packs from kark instead of creating their own.
---
I think we're in agreement that some routes need nerfed, some need buffed, but all need rebalanced.
Now the post is getting long winded again and the clarity might be lost so I'll end with those points.
What's the argument against them?
Bombermang
New Member
Argument vs 4x and 10x trade packs. One of the key points I see to trade packs from further away zones is time investments. If I can now do 90 packs in the same time as 9 I would quickly be doing 1 rokhala trip over 9 ynstere's.
On top of that I could do 1 trip across sea with a clipper and make the same as 10 packs and just about not worry about being ganked. Turning in 1 pack for 300+ charcoal would be insane or better yet a merchant for 6k+?
On top of that I could do 1 trip across sea with a clipper and make the same as 10 packs and just about not worry about being ganked. Turning in 1 pack for 300+ charcoal would be insane or better yet a merchant for 6k+?
xkf2
Active Member
Ah makes sense now, thank you
I mistook that you wanted to have pack material cost scaled up and yet only get the same gold reward at hand in (unsacled, same 11-19g)
Which I'm sitting there going... that's... awful
But, since you're talking about having scaled materials tiers of packs with the reward being scaled in tandem as well...
I like the sound of that
And I presume that both pack-craft labor and hand-in labor would be scaled similarly to the materials cost? That way you don't hand in the equivalent of 90packs (9 "big packs") for the same labor as 9... X_X
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If such a system were to be implemented, it might be a good idea to have each pack tier tied to the Commerce prof.
Different "pack tiers" avaliable at certain milestone proficiency levels - this would bring Commerce inline with other proficiencies and their different tiers for crafting various items
sugarrush
Active Member
If they take scrolls and points out of boxes that will put a choke hold on gear and wepon progression making it difficult to progress. Like on live, you need the points to make the scrolls, in order to have a chance to upgrade your gear and that meant more mind numbing trade runs. With the 22 hour timer on getting the gold REALLY drug out progression if you were to play the normal way. There are PvPers certainly don't like PvE stuff and those are the people who will put down money to buy gear via apex and credits and when they manage to out gear everyone, they leave beacuse they are bored when there is no one to PvP. Why? Because there are people still struggling to play the game without buying the gear. By putting the points in boxes was just a way to speed things up whether you kept the points or sold them on the cheap. This move was to cater to the PvPers.
Remember on live they took out the points out of the purses and lessened the amount of archeum you got, creating shortages. On top of increasing the cost of labor of being able to open the purse. So only the most powerful players were controlling the big plots of land, logs and water. Lets not forget about the choke hold the biggest guilds have on lords coins. For an Erenor weapon it take 270 lords coins + other ingredients to make. Let's be honest, to make gear takes a lot of materials & proficiency & time. By putting points in loot boxes and keeping the points in purses was the one small advantage they gave us to over come the nasty RNG. I would not go so far as to say the Auroria land is useless because I still see the archuem trees and brazers people place since those are practically free to get. You can farm whalesong for 15-20 minutes and get enough brazers and trees from the crates to plant a large farm. The cost of labor is nothing here with the high regen rate.
What I would not mind seeing is lords coins put into loot boxes so more people and get erenor gear quicker.