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Wrathsmite Change

Zecen

Member
Here I thought a pserver was supposed to be easier lol what do I know eh?
Heck if the wrathsmite dropped easier and was cheaper, I would be more willing to make my T7, might take awhile because im slow at making gold, but it would be more worth it if its cheaper.
Not everyone who has a leggy has over 100k gold to spend on it to t7 it, some of us are just lucky with regrading, like me. I would love a t7 but the price of it, isn't worth it, when I can invest it elsewhere to get better armor.
Maybe people aren't working heavily on t7s because its out of their budget, and by making wrathsmite easier or less needed in the recipe more ppl would be willing to make it. Bet no one thought of that. Right, game is only for ppl who swipe and make mega bucks.
 

havockitty

Active Member
Here I thought a pserver was supposed to be easier lol what do I know eh?
Heck if the wrathsmite dropped easier and was cheaper, I would be more willing to make my T7, might take awhile because im slow at making gold, but it would be more worth it if its cheaper.
Not everyone who has a leggy has over 100k gold to spend on it to t7 it, some of us are just lucky with regrading, like me. I would love a t7 but the price of it, isn't worth it, when I can invest it elsewhere to get better armor.
Maybe people aren't working heavily on t7s because its out of their budget, and by making wrathsmite easier or less needed in the recipe more ppl would be willing to make it. Bet no one thought of that. Right, game is only for ppl who swipe and make mega bucks.
Umm u cant do mistsong ?
 

Zecen

Member
Ummmmmm not everyone wants to farm mistsong over and over and over and OVER again. Or people might not have others to help them, or not want to ask.
But that's not the point, the point is the price difference between the mats and how much is needed.
 

havockitty

Active Member
Price is high cuz ppl dont want farm mistsong. And those ppl that farm mistsong make nice gold on it. I do 2 runs everyday now, we sell that 2 wraths i get 1k gold from it cuz i got lazy lately its fair gold for time i spend in ms i think. What else, its korean grind game u grind for stuff or p2w. I grinded all and it feels good to done it is hard time consuming but rewarding.
 

Drothroco

New Member
Here I thought a pserver was supposed to be easier lol what do I know eh?
Heck if the wrathsmite dropped easier and was cheaper, I would be more willing to make my T7, might take awhile because im slow at making gold, but it would be more worth it if its cheaper.
Not everyone who has a leggy has over 100k gold to spend on it to t7 it, some of us are just lucky with regrading, like me. I would love a t7 but the price of it, isn't worth it, when I can invest it elsewhere to get better armor.
Maybe people aren't working heavily on t7s because its out of their budget, and by making wrathsmite easier or less needed in the recipe more ppl would be willing to make it. Bet no one thought of that. Right, game is only for ppl who swipe and make mega bucks.
The fact that the regrade rates are much higher than live 4.0 is what makes legendaries already easier to get.
T7's are endgame weaponry, it's not meant to be something that's easy to gain
 

trapwhre02

Active Member
If I duo Mistsong with a great healer it'd take me 25-30min (I think that was the duration of mine with Wyatt a while ago). If we do 2 runs that's a wrathsmite for each of us meaning about 1700g an hour.
I can farm purses & crates in aegis during war and make the same amount of gold in an equal timeframe and it's difficulty is nowhere near a duo run.

I can understand people disliking the idea of devalueing smites. So I'd much rather see an increase in barks required for carpentry weapons over anything else.
 

Frontbutt

Member
Right now the only valid point you guys have made is that you don't want it changed for person gain and I'm sorry but that isn't a good reason. Either you are farming the dungeon your self and you don't know how market economies work OR you don't want to play against players with equivalent gear. @trapwhere02 not everyone has endgame gear and will not be 2 manning MSS it would take them more mechanics aside. @Drothroco no one is running MSS 5 times a day get real.
There is still the endless grinding that you need to do for all the other mats too.
 
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trapwhre02

Active Member
Right now the only valid point you guys have made is that you don't want it changed for person gain and I'm sorry but that isn't a good reason.
Wdym ?

It’s only “metal” based weapons that require wrathsmites, it’s only “wooden” weapons that don’t require wrathsmites. Two hander Nodachis, greatswords etc still need wrathsmites. These are endgame weapons something that should be costly to farm, MSS it self isn’t a hard dungeon as long as you know the mechanics, unless your a whale you shouldn’t have two t7 one handers as the only benefit is the equip effect no difference in DPS with two. Archers & Mages get it easy compared to melee and imo it’s sort of a balance since more gold is needed to gear other parts of archers/mages compared to melee.
Kadum is a limited number per day where each player has 1 chance per day to get a bark.
Wrathsmites are a dungeon boss reward. A dungeon that that can be done many times in one day.
You cannot take current price and tiering two t7s as argument. Smites are often at 1000-1200g too just like barks sometimes. And tiering two weapons should of course be more expensive than a single carpentry weapon.
This is not good idea cuz ppl do mistsong for profit and cutting down ways of making gold is always bad
I can farm purses & crates in aegis during war and make the same amount of gold in an equal timeframe and it's difficulty is nowhere near a duo run.
If anything, just agree with carpentry requiring more barks. Makes it fair and doesn't devaluate wrathsmites, will lower supply of bark's on market and maybe even increase it's price which is great considering it's a "free" item.

Although then what happens if people stop attending kadum as much ? Bark's will skyrocket and you won't be able to do anything against it and will have to wait for people to realize the hidden profit in it until they attend it again.
With smites skyrocketing you can at least find 2-3 people and farm them yourself.

Quantity of wrathsmites for a t7 should never be below or on par with barks. Simply because bark's are a limited supply and smites can be obtained somewhat infinitely. I say raise barks to 20, keep smites at 30.
 
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Sjinderson

Active Member
Staff member
Technical Assistant
So far there has been no real reason to make a change.

So far it is it should be changed because it does not compare to barks.
They are not the same material. Barks are a luck based drop gained through a timed boss.
Wrathsmites are a dungeon reward. You do the dungeon whenever you want and get a wrathsmite at the end.

As for cost difference. Players decide what they sell the item for. Players decide what they are willing to pay for it. The market is controlled by this.

Archeage is a multiplayer game built on working with others. Can't do the dungeon. Then ask people for help and make some friends with people. Or buy them from people doing the dungeon.
Its a dungeon. Anyone can do it.
 
Re: the "flood the market" argument -- if T7s are easier to craft, T7 mats demand will go up because more people will have them in reach. If the price tanks significantly for people to no longer want to run mistsong, then fewer people will run mistsong and that will raise the price of wrathsmites. It's basic free market economics, people.

So far there has been no real reason to make a change.

So far it is it should be changed because it does not compare to barks.
They are not the same material. Barks are a luck based drop gained through a timed boss.
Wrathsmites are a dungeon reward. You do the dungeon whenever you want and get a wrathsmite at the end.

As for cost difference. Players decide what they sell the item for. Players decide what they are willing to pay for it. The market is controlled by this.

Archeage is a multiplayer game built on working with others. Can't do the dungeon. Then ask people for help and make some friends with people. Or buy them from people doing the dungeon.
Its a dungeon. Anyone can do it.
Have you been reading what everyone except Drothroco and Havoc have said? The disparity between weapon types is the reason to make the change. As has been pointed out multiple times, the cost of the crafting mats for some weapons is over 100k and some are less than 10% of that. For no discernible reason and no reason that anybody has been able to explain with certainty.

There's so much extra content on this server that a lot of people don't have time to run mistsong tons of times a day. Live didn't have that extra content. When 4.0 dropped on live, wrathsmites absolutely tanked in price because so many people were running mistsong solely for lunarite. This server doesn't have that same dynamic because of the custom changes here and the extremely lunarite-heavy cash shop RNG boxes dumping that stuff into the market.

Give me a legitimate reason why one type of weapon should cost more than ten times more than another type of the same tier and I may reconsider my position.
 

Thinking

Member
There's so much extra content on this server that a lot of people don't have time to run mistsong tons of times a day.
Not really..?

Luscas, Abyssal, Cr, Gr, Aegis, Whalesong, DS Invasion, Halcy War, Hasla Rift, Kraken, Anthalon, Meina/Glenn

Hardly any of these are custom/extra and on top of that, only about half of them are "mandatory" or done on every spawn.

This essentially comes down to a matter of priorities. If someone is more keen on going to luscas, CR, or another event than working towards t7'ing their weapon, then how can they realistically expect for it to happen? Everyone has only so many hours to play, it's up to you to allocate them accordingly. If you want to achieve a pretty ambitious goal (like t7'ing a weapon), it shouldn't be easy.

Give me a legitimate reason why one type of weapon should cost more than ten times more than another type of the same tier and I may reconsider my position.
The price difference between a metal and wooden t7 (legendary, really the minimum grade for efficient t7ing) is not > 10x, actually it's not even 2x if we are talking overall cost of the weapon here. A rough price estimate for a legendary t7 is anywhere from 110-190k in my experience.

In addition, A mythic ayanad or epic erenor (comparable weapons to a legendary t7), shouldn't run you more than 200k. Even if you tried to make the argument that a legendary erenor is comparable to a legendary t7 in effectiveness because of crit damage passives, etc. those only cost 300k (or potentially quite less if you buy it secondhand) to make, which would only be ~2x more expensive than an average legendary t7.

Upgrade-cost wise, The disparity between kadum barks and wrathsmite shards required for t7 crafts should not be changed.

If you are going to farm your t7 mats yourself:

Regarding wrathsmites, you (your small group) have complete control over how fast you farm them, you don't have to wait for an ingame event, you can run MS pretty much whenever you like, and Taris is guaranteed to drop what you need. You can even run mistsong up to like 20 times in a day hypothetically if you wanted to. If you're having trouble finding people to help you farm 30 for free, offer them your reticule lunarite or offer to pay them a reduced cost per wrathsmite, I know lots of people who farmed theirs this way and it ultimately resulted in a price that was comparable to kadum barks.

Regarding kadum bark, you have little to no influence on the availability of them, and you pretty much can't farm them yourself within a reasonable amount of time, considering the drop rate is so low. Your options regarding kadum's bark are pretty much buy them or buy them.

If you and your group (let's just say 5 people total) run mistsong 5 times for 6 days, that's enough for a t7. However, it's essentially statistically impossible for those same 5 people to go to every kadum in 6 days and get 12 kadum barks. I would even go out on a limb here to say your 5 man group probably couldn't obtain 12 kadum barks in 12 or even 18 days either.

@Drothroco no one is running MSS 5 times a day get real.
Actually, this isn't hard to accomplish. People run mistsong 5+ times daily in my nation. I've been playing this server for almost two years and I ran mistsong as a 5 man with complete ease as a party of 6k gearscores (pre 4.0, so probably ~7-8k after 4.0?) for one to three hours (not really asking much) every night and farmed several hundred shards. Mmistsong is not a remotely difficult or challenging dungeon for a player who has a gear level just a bit over what the support pack offers. It mostly just boils down to the amount of time it takes to run the dungeon, which ultimately, is not a good enough reason to change the recipes.

Speaking as a pretty experienced and accomplished player, there are really very few things in archeage that have truly been challenging. Part of the fun in a MMO is that you can always (or almost always) be working towards a new goal, reducing requirements or watering down recipes only creates less of a progression element.
 

Thinking

Member
OR you don't want to play against players with equivalent gear.
Yeah... if you don't want to water down progression elements and agree with my proposition to make gearing easier over an extremely minuscule concern then you must not want to fight people with equivalent gear.

There is still the endless grinding that you need to do for all the other mats too.
The term "endless" is definitely not accurate, I've t7'd a multitude of items in less than a day without swiping. T7'ing is actually relatively easy and is mostly a time-gated process with easily measurable progress rather than an endless grind.

Metal t7 = 30 wrath’s x 1800 current price = 54,000 gold (x 2 each hand =108,000 gold. Depending on class)
2h t7 = 12 bark x 700 = 8,400 gold.

Why does a wooden weapons cost half the size require more mats?
First off, you just compared 2 weapons versus one. Secondly, dual wielding two metal t7's is extremely uncommon and definitely a niche gearing case.
 
The price difference between a metal and wooden t7 (legendary, really the minimum grade for efficient t7ing) is not > 10x, actually it's not even 2x if we are talking overall cost of the weapon here. A rough price estimate for a legendary t7 is anywhere from 110-190k in my experience.
What in the world are you basing this on? Here are the real numbers from the AH averages:
1700g * 30 wrathsmites = 51,000g
400g * 12 bark = 4,800G


Upgrade-cost wise, The disparity between kadum barks and wrathsmite shards required for t7 crafts should not be changed.
What are you basing this on?
 

Thinking

Member
What in the world are you basing this on? Here are the real numbers from the AH averages:
1700g * 30 wrathsmites = 51,000g
400g * 12 bark = 4,800G




What are you basing this on?
overall craft/weapon cost, the cost of the wraths/kadums alone does not encompass the full cost of the upgrade, just like the cost of the t7 upgrade alone does not encompass the full cost of the weapon

A t7 legendary wooden could potentially be 100-140k, versus a t7 legendary metal weapon could be 130-180k (rough ranges), the difference between the particular upgrade steps is also not 4800g vs 51000g, that's solely just the kadums vs the wrathsmites. Creating an actual t6 -> t7 weapon is something more along the lines of 50k wooden vs 90k metal when factoring in all of the materials required for the t7 craft, assuming you just purchase everything on the AH. So yes, a certain aspect of the t7 craft itself may be 10x more costly for metal weapons, but the overall cost to t7 a metal weapon is not beyond 2x the cost of wooden.

Metal weapon makers aren't paying 10x more overall to t7 their weapons, in fact it's probably less than 2x, and that's if you just buy all your smites

Now that i've established the actual costs of t7ing a metal vs a wooden, i want to touch on the disparity between gearing classes such as archer and mage vs melee. These cost savings from wooden t7s in the case of mage/archer are pretty much depleted by the increased cost of creating a viable gear setup in comparison with a melee user of comparable gearscore. in other words, the differences in expenses pretty much offset themselves and make everyones (except maybe healers) out of pocket costs roughly the same.
 
A t7 legendary wooden could potentially be 100-140k, versus a t7 legendary metal weapon could be 130-180k (rough ranges), the difference between the particular upgrade steps is also not 4800g vs 51000g, that's solely just the kadums vs the wrathsmites. Creating an actual t6 -> t7 weapon is something more along the lines of 50k wooden vs 90k metal when factoring in all of the materials required for the t7 craft, assuming you just purchase everything on the AH. So yes, a certain aspect of the t7 craft itself may be 10x more costly for metal weapons, but the overall cost to t7 a metal weapon is not beyond 2x the cost of wooden.

Metal weapon makers aren't paying 10x more overall to t7 their weapons, in fact it's probably less than 2x, and that's if you just buy all your smites
What's funny is the prices that you're quoting demonstrate 30-40k in disparity between the types, which is relatively close to the disparity I'm describing between them. You're not citing any actual sources of that difference, though. Let's pretend that you're right about the 30-40k even though you didn't describe the source of that difference. Why is there 30-40k in disparity between crafting these weapon types?

Was there 30-40% disparity between the two types on live? No. Why? Because more people were running mistsong on live because they needed it for lunarite. Because coinpurses didn't receive the same buffs that they did on this server. Because there were people with alt accounts who could grind the dungeon out on multiple characters simultaneously to maximize the lunarite drops and make it super-lucrative.
 

Thinking

Member
What's funny is the prices that you're quoting demonstrate 30-40k in disparity between the types, which is relatively close to the disparity I'm describing between them. You're not citing any actual sources of that difference, though. Let's pretend that you're right about the 30-40k even though you didn't describe the source of that difference. Why is there 30-40k in disparity between crafting these weapon types?

Was there 30-40% disparity between the two types on live? No. Why? Because more people were running mistsong on live because they needed it for lunarite. Because coinpurses didn't receive the same buffs that they did on this server. Because there were people with alt accounts who could grind the dungeon out on multiple characters simultaneously to maximize the lunarite drops and make it super-lucrative.
The source of the information is the ingame crafting recipes and the cost associated with the items pertaining to them, this isn't exactly secret or extremely complex information. My figures are approximations, as the costs of items are always fluctuating, even slightly.

The disparity in price is primarily due to the wrathsmites vs kadum barks, yes. However making the argument that t7 wooden vs t7 metal is 5000g vs 50000g is extremely short sighted. A t7 requires much more than just wraths or kadums, a t6->t7 wooden requires ~40k gold (estimation) and a t6->t7 metal requires ~90k gold (estimation) that's nowhere near the 10x ratio you're focused on spinning this off to be. The boss material component of the overall t7 craft may be 10x more expensive, however the overall t7 craft is a much smaller ratio than that. You can't make a t7 with solely wrathsmites or kadums, so you shouldn't look at the cost of making a t7 with such a limited view.

This server isn't live and just because an item was inherently less valuable due to the amount of servers / players on live doesn't necessarily mean that the devs here should bridge the gap. If anything, I would argue that the devs altering recipes or changing the supply of an item is fundamentally against the free market approach to archeage that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
 

Thinking

Member
Here I thought a pserver was supposed to be easier lol what do I know eh?
Heck if the wrathsmite dropped easier and was cheaper, I would be more willing to make my T7, might take awhile because im slow at making gold, but it would be more worth it if its cheaper.
Not everyone who has a leggy has over 100k gold to spend on it to t7 it, some of us are just lucky with regrading, like me. I would love a t7 but the price of it, isn't worth it, when I can invest it elsewhere to get better armor.
Maybe people aren't working heavily on t7s because its out of their budget, and by making wrathsmite easier or less needed in the recipe more ppl would be willing to make it. Bet no one thought of that. Right, game is only for ppl who swipe and make mega bucks.
The private server is hands down easier than live in so many aspects I can't even believe you're saying this. Free patron, 4x labor, cheaper swiping just to name a few.

If you're that poor then you really shouldn't be buying every component of your t7 craft off of the auction house. I've made almost a dozen t7s and the majority of the materials were almost always grown vs bought. Wrathsmites are extremely easy to farm, especially when you consider the level of gear our server is currently at, the support pack is almost enough to jump right into mistsong and start farming it at this point. Also, several groups were doing 5+ runs a day 18 months ago. If your excuse is that you simply can't stand to either run the dungeon yourself or that you can't dedicate enough time to the game or prioritize your ingame activities, you probably don't deserve a t7. Casual players with little to no aspirations who happened to get lucky on a regrade and suck at making gold probably shouldn't have the ability to be able to t7 their weapon they were so lucky to obtain, at this point you're really just asking for handouts.

A legendary t6 is still a relatively decent weapon. Top tier? maybe not, but definitely better than what a good chunk of players are sporting these days.
 
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The source of the information is the ingame crafting recipes and the cost associated with the items pertaining to them, this isn't exactly secret or extremely complex information. My figures are approximations, as the costs of items are always fluctuating, even slightly.
You're still speaking in super vague terms and not pointing to any sort of concrete source of price disparity outside the wrathsmites vs barks situation. You even admit that the wrathsmites are the majority of the difference in the cost between the two here:
The disparity in price is primarily due to the wrathsmites vs kadum barks, yes.
However making the argument that t7 wooden vs t7 metal is 5000g vs 50000g is extremely short sighted.
^ I don't think you know what short sighted means.

The boss material component of the overall t7 craft may be 10x more expensive, however the overall t7 craft is a much smaller ratio than that. You can't make a t7 with solely wrathsmites or kadums, so you shouldn't look at the cost of making a t7 with such a limited view.
Why is the disparity ok when it's being directly caused by custom changes on this server?

The reasons nobody runs mistsong on this server that I can think of are:
1) Too much other stuff to do
2) Only 1 reticule per boss per person (no alt accounts on this server)
3) Lunarite is cheap here because coinpurses have been significantly buffed and RNG boxes have contained lunarite almost constantly for months on end
4) Too many other (less boring) ways of making gold exist (buffed fishing, buffed sunken ships, old trade pack system, buffed coinpurses, etc)

This server isn't live and just because an item was inherently less valuable due to the amount of servers / players on live doesn't necessarily mean that the devs here should bridge the gap. If anything, I would argue that the devs altering recipes or changing the supply of an item is fundamentally against the free market approach to archeage that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
That argument would hold water if the problem weren't directly caused by the changes that the devs have already made, as listed above.
 

Thinking

Member
You're still speaking in super vague terms and not pointing to any sort of concrete source of price disparity outside the wrathsmites vs barks situation. You even admit that the wrathsmites are the majority of the difference in the cost between the two here:



^ I don't think you know what short sighted means.



Why is the disparity ok when it's being directly caused by custom changes on this server?

The reasons nobody runs mistsong on this server that I can think of are:
1) Too much other stuff to do
2) Only 1 reticule per boss per person (no alt accounts on this server)
3) Lunarite is cheap here because coinpurses have been significantly buffed and RNG boxes have contained lunarite almost constantly for months on end
4) Too many other (less boring) ways of making gold exist (buffed fishing, buffed sunken ships, old trade pack system, buffed coinpurses, etc)



That argument would hold water if the problem weren't directly caused by the changes that the devs have already made, as listed above.
The price disparity is the kadums/wrathsmites, obviously. As I already quoted.
The disparity in price is primarily due to the wrathsmites vs kadum barks, yes.
These prices are rough approximations based on auction house fluctuations and are able to change at any time:
The cost of a t7 wooden weapon is: 235 sun essence (~4,700g), 12 kadum barks (~4,800g), 12 nightmare essence (~600g), and 10 blazing nuri lumber (~40,000g)
Total T7 Wooden Cost: ~50,100g


The cost of a t7 metal weapon is: 235 sun essence (~4,700g), 30 wrathsmite shards (~50,000), 12 kyrios fragments (~300g), and 10 blazing nuri sunridge ingots (~40,000g)
Total T7 Metal Cost: ~95,000

As you can see, the overall cost of t7'ing a wooden vs a metal weapon doesn't not exceed a 2x multiple, it is not 4,800g vs 50,000g but rather 50,100g vs 95,000g. Assuming someone simply just buys every material needed for the craft through the auction house. You're not paying 10x to T7 your metal weapon, and you're actually not even paying double what a wooden user would pay.

---

Wrathsmites have costed more than kadums per unit for pretty much the entire existence of the server, this isn't a newfound phenomenon or only because of custom changes. What is boring to you may be enjoyable to another player, just because running a dungeon for gold isn't very interesting for some players, doesn't mean that same mindset can be extrapolated to the entire population. If you really have comparable ways to make gold that are much less boring, then why is it so undesirable to buy wrathsmites if you hate mistsong so much and are truly making equal or better levels of money?

If a person's moneymaking method isn't up to par with the value that mistsong gives, and they also aren't willing to buy the shards, or they think the dungeon is too hard, and this doesn't motivate them to change something by either starting to run it themselves, make more gold, or get better at the game; then I'm sorry, but they're a hopeless case and have an extremely weak mentality. The biggest goals/achievements in ArcheAge shouldn't be achievable solely on your own or by being apathetic (Castles, Ayanad earring, Dream ring, the biggest and hardest bosses, the highest grades of equipments), this is a MMO after all and by isolating yourself you should be put at a disadvantage. Arguably, 30 runs of mistsong is a drop in the bucket in comparison to 100 runs of serp and dahuta each, or a 3 month questline of dailies and bosses, or something that requires at least 50 assembled players to attempt let alone accomplish. If mistsong wasn't hard in 2.9 or 3.0 with crappy gear and no ancestrals/op gems, then it sure as hell isn't in 4.0.

Let's also for a moment consider the future implications of patches that are arriving in less than 6 months:

In the 4.5 patch, T7 weapon and armor will become recloakable relatively cheaply. You will be able to essentially transmute and sell any bound t7 equipment. This will only make T7 items more accessible to other players, primarily because there will likely be a substantial influx of these weapons from players who previously quit. Even if T7 costs were an issue on this server, there is a planned update coming within a relatively short amount of time that essentially adresses the T7 accessibility issue that some people on this thread claim exists.
 
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