Why can't we talk about RNG loot boxs?

[Kain]

You literally took the section of my post where I said "i can't believe the dumb shit people say with regards to cash shops" and then said it all.

If you actually believe what you say is true then you should have no issues pointing out some counterarguments to what I've said instead of just dismissing all my points because you think you're right.

Any game with an item in the cash shop that gives a negligible advantage is by your own logic p2w, and that's just straight ignorant logic, it's a way more nuanced situation than just a straight up yes or no.

Can people skip 12 hours of ingame time by spending 100$? Yes, sure, but can you even consider that winning? You'll catch up regardless if you're focused and your average player doesn't have stacks of cash laying around to throw into the game. (Whales shouldn't be considered in a p2w argument, if you did, then every game with a cash shop is p2w because whales can always abuse it.)

 

[Silverbranch]

I can't believe I'm actually quoting urban dictionary for something but here goes

Pay to win - Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

This is an MMO, MMO's are progression based, with ArcheAge's RNG based system, and the ability to destroy weapons it's even more of a progression game.

Your argument is basically "It's not p2w because it's cheap" or "it's not p2w because its obtainable ingame". I don't understand how you can write either of those things whilst maintaining a straight face.

Following your own math, you can play 12 hours a day to progress, and you'll progress at a fair rate.
However, I'm not even going to log in, every day I'm going to drop $100.

Now we're in a scenario where despite the fact you're contributing 12 hours of your life to the game, every day, I don't even log in, but I'm on a par with you. So despite not even logging in (Okay bar to by the gear I'm p2w'ing) I'm akin to you on progression.

Regardless of whether you donate $1 or $100,000,000 your ability to swipe a card has given you an advantage.

If we both play 12 hours a day, doing the exact same thing, but at the end of the day I donate $1, I've got an advantage, it may be a small one, but it's tangible - and it scales.

 

[soxx]

By a broad statement, YES archeage as a game is "P2W". There are Microtransactionsns, how either of you defines it, whether being P2 progress, P2 convenience or P2 Win. It all boils down to an advantage of some sort. I truly don't understand the point of arguing this. It's in the game and there is literally no way its going to be changed lmao. On the topic of RNG loot boxes, no matter at what level, everyone benefits. Some at a faster rate, but for example, just because some people pay for RNG loot boxes doesn't mean they'll keep all luckies. Those luckies then go into the eco and higher supply drives down the cost and f2p players benefit by that. & not having to wait the 2 weeks.

Regardless, RNG boxes or not, paying money for credits is still "p2w" in any instance where the items purchased for credits are tradeable between players SO everything is still "p2w". What else is there to argue about?

It's always going to boil down to, if you don't like it, adapt or die. You can do as Kain is suggesting and making money by other means, or continue to whine on the forums for absolutely no point \o/. Either way a majority of other players will still be enjoying the game.

 

[Kain]

I can't believe I'm actually quoting urban dictionary for something but here goes

Pay to win - Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

This is an MMO, MMO's are progression based, with ArcheAge's RNG based system, and the ability to destroy weapons it's even more of a progression game.

Your argument is basically "It's not p2w because it's cheap" or "it's not p2w because its obtainable ingame". I don't understand how you can write either of those things whilst maintaining a straight face.

Following your own math, you can play 12 hours a day to progress, and you'll progress at a fair rate.
However, I'm not even going to log in, every day I'm going to drop $100.

Now we're in a scenario where despite the fact you're contributing 12 hours of your life to the game, every day, I don't even log in, but I'm on a par with you. So despite not even logging in (Okay bar to by the gear I'm p2w'ing) I'm akin to you on progression.

Regardless of whether you donate $1 or $100,000,000 your ability to swipe a card has given you an advantage.

If we both play 12 hours a day, doing the exact same thing, but at the end of the day I donate $1, I've got an advantage, it may be a small one, but it's tangible - and it scales.

Pay to win - Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
I'm pretty sure you're neglecting this part of the sentence.
Yes you'll be akin to me gear wise but where's the unbalanced part of it?
I'm still caught up to you and you're caught up to me, unless you're spending quite a bit of money I will still catch up to you in a fair amount of time, I fail to see how it makes it "largely unbalanced".

I also didn't say it isn't p2w because it's cheap, I said it's not AS p2w as you could make it be. Like I said, it's more nuanced than yes or no.
Example: Imagine you could buy a Divine weapon in this server for 20$ and the same on Live servers. Can you actually say this server is AS pay to win as the live servers? No, you can't.
Sure you're gaining an advantage in both cases, but in this server you'll have an easier time to catch up due to all the benefits you get. (Which means the unbalanced situation isn't as bad.)

Don't get me wrong, I understand your point perfectly but what I'm trying to say is basically this:
Do you consider spending 100$ to be more geared than me for a couple of hours, winning?
Does spending that kind of money and killing me once before I gear up count as a win for you?
I will catch up to you regardless and unless you're whaling pretty hard, our gear wouldn't be that much different that you could call it unbalanced, or that you'd win 100% of the time if we fought against each other.

One last extreme example: Imagine you could buy 1 hit point for 100$, by your own definition you would say this is pay to win, you're gaining an advantage over me, regardless of how minute it is. I want to see you say that with a straight face though.
This isn't pay to win, it's pay to waste your money. (I'm allowed to make this example because according to you, there is no gray area.)

Also just to make it clear, I don't intend to annoy you when I'm arguing. I just like to discuss things and understand other's PoVs, and if I learn something new from it then cool.

By a broad statement, YES archeage as a game is "P2W". There are Microtransactionsns, how either of you defines it, whether being P2 progress, P2 convenience or P2 Win. It all boils down to an advantage of some sort. I truly don't understand the point of arguing this. It's in the game and there is literally no way its going to be changed lmao. On the topic of RNG loot boxes, no matter at what level, everyone benefits. Some at a faster rate, but for example, just because some people pay for RNG loot boxes doesn't mean they'll keep all luckies. Those luckies then go into the eco and higher supply drives down the cost and f2p players benefit by that. & not having to wait the 2 weeks.

Regardless, RNG boxes or not, paying money for credits is still "p2w" in any instance where the items purchased for credits are tradeable between players SO everything is still "p2w". What else is there to argue about?

It's always going to boil down to, if you don't like it, adapt or die. You can do as Kain is suggesting and making money by other means, or continue to whine on the forums for absolutely no point \o/. Either way a majority of other players will still be enjoying the game.

I just like to discuss things, that's all, really.

 

[Scylon]

f you actually believe what you say is true then you should have no issues pointing out some counterarguments to what I've said

I'll do that then.

You say because you can buy it off the AH, that makes it fair. You seem to be forgetting that the only way that item made it to the AH in the 1st place is because someone used the cash shop and put it there. So they are not winning by gear this time, they are just buying gold indirectly. This is the same thing. It means they can just "buy gold" and then get what ever they want off the AH.

Buy that logic you can just buy anything you like on the cash shop, sell it in game, get gold and then buy all the stuff that isn't on the cash shop. Money = p2w. Even cosmetics.

 

[Kain]

I'll do that then.

You say because you can buy it off the AH, that makes it fair. You seem to be forgetting that the only way that item made it to the AH in the 1st place is because someone used the cash shop and put it there. So they are not winning by gear this time, they are just buying gold indirectly. This is the same thing. It means they can just "buy gold" and then get what ever they want off the AH.

Buy that logic you can just buy anything you like on the cash shop, sell it in game, get gold and then buy all the stuff that isn't on the cash shop. Money = p2w. Even cosmetics.

Buying gold isn't against the rules and I'm not claiming the game isn't p2w.
You should probably read my posts before replying to me, and if you did read them then read them again because you seem to have ignored everything I've said.

 

[Scylon]

You should probably read my posts before replying to me

There is a grey zone, it depends on how much benefit you get from cashing instead of playing the game normally, which is why you don't call it pay to win but pay to progress because after all, anything that is in the cash shop can be bought with gold.

I did read it. The person you are replying to was saying basically what I said. There is no grey line. If you buy something that gives you and advantage with your gear, or your in game gold that is pay to win. It's black and white.

They only grey part is how much p2w is it.

 

[Kain]

I did read it. The person you are replying to was saying basically what I said. There is no grey line. If you buy something that gives you and advantage with your gear, or your in game gold that is pay to win. It's black and white.

They only grey part is how much p2w is it.

There are more posts after that.

 

[TuckingFypo]

P2W historically has two components

Nope. False.
Pay2win literally means you're paying for an advantage. In an economic based game pay2win refers time spent in the game to be completely outdone by the advantage gained through cashing (in this case, the advantage is gold).

If Billy Bob spends 5 bucks in this game, the average player can make up that amount of money he got from cashing with little issue.
If Billy Bob spends 100 bucks in this game, the average player can STILL make up that amount of money.

Now if Billy Bob spends enough so that the average player cannot possibly keep up to him? In that case yes he, himself, is pay2win. But when the average joe isn't bypassing the game even if they cash in 100 dollars, then the game itself is fine.

But sure, quote urban dictionary as your source. Lmao.