Should PLAYER NATIONS be removed?

[Flipsy]

I mean if your allocating your funds into people that are going to stop playing the game within a short span that falls on you as a leader. Once again majority of that short novels is irrelevant. Your main point is there is no learning experiences to be had to which I can sort of agree, But you should not be relying on halcy as a event to learn 90% of the rvr before we got involved was line fighting or just holding w into the opposition cause you have more people. That is not learning that is just mob pvp, Learning happens within said guilds not in pugs raids. To bounce off of some of Taylors point there is definitely enough geared players in each faction to match us. When we attend halcy majority of the time it is less then 11-12 of us are we aren't in comms making calls its mostly just pinging to group and if we are in comms its just us messing around. Like I said regardless of any point the west wants to make you guys are scapegoating "trying to get nations deleted" because you can't even comprehend the ability to catch up or even trying to catch up due to the lack of leadership and willingness of your player base/guilds.

Not within a short timespan, it's just a fact of life. People have kids, other hobbies, jobs, lack of jobs, moving, etc. Happened over the course of a year, it's nothing I can't be mad at, life > game. I agree, Halcy should not be the sole event to learn from, but the alternative is to fight one of you guys which turns into 10, that's not exactly an option either. Leadership and "heart of the cards" doesn't prevent getting 2-shot.

so you're saying you all just accept the fact that you're trash and are begging the admins to swing things in your favor instead of trying to improve on your own. Got it.
even with a gear advantage, 10 players with 7-8k gearscore shouldn't steamroll 20 players with 5-7k gearscore if they have an actual raid lead.

As I've said numerous times: we are trying. I'm simply voicing the overall complaints of the West and what people on the West are overall saying is their opinion and the reason behind it. I come from Lineage 2, where even in the top clan/alliance, we made our own PVP instead of standing on top demanding people get better while we stomp their faces into the mud and getting mad they aren't licking our boots. There is no one capable of teaching, there is a large amount of knowledge spread out all over the place, and any time it tries to come together and work out in some way, you guys steamroll before the people even begin to learn how to work together. Yeah, 10 people with 7-8k GS shouldn't steamroll 20 people at 5-7k, but when those 20 are from different guilds and no one there has large experience being a leader, ofc they're going to hit bumps in the road. You guys are just mountains in the road, not bumps.

ur pissed btw

lol I'm honestly one of the happiest people over here

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. We show up to halcy with 8 people on average, some of which are the same gearscore as flipsy and you guys get rolled. My point was that flipsy doesn't put in any effort to improve but wants things to change. You guys either don't try to win or are just so bad that your efforts go in vain. Either way, you're pissed lmao.

I put in effort. 9 people sticking around for 10 kills at Halcy into a constant raid of potatoes and casuals with some high GS players sprinkled in between isn't just something that "happens" in the West. I put in the effort I can, I'm simply voicing the reason behind why people want some semblance of change to happen with Player Nations. We have 1 person trying, that clearly isn't enough (especially since I'm inept as fuck to begin with), and yet you guys seem to be the ones that get mad when the West wants to leave a Halcy because they don't find getting 2-shot to be fun.

 

[Vinchino]

@Flipsy
I've heard from multiple people on the west you are the one that makes the call to leave halcy when there's even 1 person from pn that shows up. I know you take the west raid to the edge of halcyona and flag on eachother for kill credit. You don't need to bullshit bud. We don't get mad that you frail out of halcy. We get mad that you frail out of halcy and cry on the forums about things being unfair even though you don't try. If you don't want to pvp, then don't. But don't go around crying to admins because you want to win pvp events without trying.

 

[Flipsy]

@Flipsy
I've heard from multiple people on the west you are the one that makes the call to leave halcy when there's even 1 person from pn that shows up. I know you take the west raid to the edge of halcyona and flag on eachother for kill credit. You don't need to bullshit bud. We don't get mad that you frail out of halcy. We get mad that you frail out of halcy and cry on the forums about things being unfair even though you don't try. If you don't want to pvp, then don't. But don't go around crying to admins because you want to win pvp events without trying.

When a raid of 40 turn into a raid of 24 after one engagement, I make that call. When there are more PN than there are West, I make that call. We already lost with larger numbers, you wipe the raid without us getting 1 kill, why stay when the next engagement would have fewer members than before? Staying around to fight a wall isn't something people want to do on a game they play for fun, and aside from the people who have no idea what's going on, I hear no qualms about the decision because people want to move on with their evening. I don't cry about anything, I point out the hypocrisy on your end of saying "we want PVP" then shit-stomp people that you know aren't capable of fighting you and expecting them to stay there and thank you for it. You guys keep saying I "want to win pvp events without trying" completely ignoring the fact that before I chose to give it a shot because no one else would after 2 weeks of no one even making a reset raid, and at that point less than a dozen people showed for Halcy. We lost for SIX WEEKS STRAIGHT, so please don't try to gaslight me when the West has repeatedly shown up to PVP without the intent to win well before this thread was made (right around the same time the previous PN thread was made, I think). As I've said numerous times before: the West doesn't mind losing, it's when they're learning nothing from it by getting mowed down by 3 people that they decide to leave.

Well you're obviously PISSED so west must be devastated by my high IQ psychological warfare in shout chat

It was a shout chat brought up by one of the ~30, I have shout chat off because Runda and Shankss have a good old time spamming in the zones they're in and filling the windows in a short time, it makes reading raid and guild chat comically difficult lol

 

[Vinchino]

When a raid of 40 turn into a raid of 24 after one engagement, I make that call.

Wiping once and recalling isn't trying to improve. Even with 24, you should still stand a pretty good chance of killing 8 of us.

When there are more PN than there are West, I make that call.

When has there been a halcy that you led where pn outnumbered west? We literally always show up with less than 10 people.

why stay when the next engagement would have fewer members than before?

Maybe try what i suggested before? Try. Call targets, Petrify sks, CC dps. Literally just try.

I point out the hypocrisy on your end of saying "we want PVP" then shit-stomp people that you know aren't capable of fighting you and expecting them to stay there and thank you for it.

You guys are completely capable of fighting us especially when you heavily outnumber us. You just don't try.

As I've said numerous times before: the West doesn't mind losing, it's when they're learning nothing from it by getting mowed down by 3 people that they decide to leave.

Clearly you mind. But not enough to actually try I guess.

All I ever see you do is cry about things being unfair. And I agree. It is unfair. It's unfair the west has a lot of potential but such frail leaders not putting in any effort to improve. You're delusional if you consider yourself trying when you don't even do the basics. Get people in proper raid specs, tell your dps to focus our dps (majority of the time your entire raid is focusing me), tell your healers to petrify our tanks/healers. The people in your raids aren't the problem, I'd leave too if my raid lead wasn't trying.

 

[Flipsy]

1. Wiping once and recalling isn't trying to improve. Even with 24, you should still stand a pretty good chance of killing 8 of us.
2. When has there been a halcy that you led where pn outnumbered west? We literally always show up with less than 10 people.
3. Maybe try what i suggested before? Try. Call targets, Petrify sks, CC dps. Literally just try.
4. You guys are completely capable of fighting us especially when you heavily outnumber us. You just don't try.
5. Clearly you mind. But not enough to actually try I guess.
6. All I ever see you do is cry about things being unfair. And I agree. It is unfair. It's unfair the west has a lot of potential but such frail leaders not putting in any effort to improve. You're delusional if you consider yourself trying when you don't even do the basics. Get people in proper raid specs, tell your dps to focus our dps (majority of the time your entire raid is focusing me), tell your healers to petrify our tanks/healers. The people in your raids aren't the problem, I'd leave too if my raid lead wasn't trying.

1. Wiping once and killing none in the process isn't worth the effort according to the faction.
2. There've been a few, namely Thursdays and Sundays. We barely can pull 10.
3. We do. But again, no other leaders making calls. I'm the one calling targets, calling bubbles, calling fears, calling CC's, calling pushes, calling everything. No one does anything unless I say it. Just one person is doing everything on the West because (again), all the capable people were absorbed by PN. You can't send people back because of limitations, and because I quite honestly believe you guys refuse to in the first place. West is a shithole, East is a shithole. I understand why you want to be on your own, but the situation doesn't foster confidence in the vanilla factions.
4. Ask Droth and Books, the ONLY reason we successfully fight you guys while outnumbered happens is because my guys do something, but we don't have that many. The only TK's and Cruel Glory Sashes I see used are majority-Trickster. Droth and Books do everything they can to CC me so I can't CC them. No one else does, and typing it a dozen times doesn't do shit: people can't read the text in front of their faces.
5. Nitpick one situation and ignore the months building up to this point. 6 weeks. Not 6 hours. Weeks. That's 42 Halcyonas in a row of losing. Sorry there's only one "leader" willing to try and he's a rainbow-haired piece of crap in comparison to all your leaders.
6. Pointing out the hypocrisy isn't crying about unfairness, it's pointing out what is being seen by the majority of the server. You guys keep saying "get people in proper raid specs" and no one to guide them in that direction. People don't read chat, people don't get in voice, sorry that the leadership tries and the members don't follow. So now it's a situation of leadership trying, members not listening, and neither of them having the self-attained coordination to make it work without being in comms like you guys. Gear score is irrelevant when there is no coordination. There is no coordination because there is no willingness from more than half the population. And when we ARE able to gather people up, you guys dominate the West because at the end of it all, you personally can drop half the West with 2 God's Whips. And no one wants to stick around and get killed with nothing to show for it. That's not MY personal feeling, because I can survive every one of your guys' combos except Droth. It's what gets voiced.

 

[Vinchino]

1. Wiping once and killing none in the process isn't worth the effort according to the faction.
2. There've been a few, namely Thursdays and Sundays. We barely can pull 10.
3. We do. But again, no other leaders making calls. I'm the one calling targets, calling bubbles, calling fears, calling CC's, calling pushes, calling everything. No one does anything unless I say it. Just one person is doing everything on the West because (again), all the capable people were absorbed by PN. You can't send people back because of limitations, and because I quite honestly believe you guys refuse to in the first place. West is a shithole, East is a shithole. I understand why you want to be on your own, but the situation doesn't foster confidence in the vanilla factions.
4. Ask Droth and Books, the ONLY reason we successfully fight you guys while outnumbered happens is because my guys do something, but we don't have that many. The only TK's and Cruel Glory Sashes I see used are majority-Trickster. Droth and Books do everything they can to CC me so I can't CC them. No one else does, and typing it a dozen times doesn't do shit: people can't read the text in front of their faces.
5. Nitpick one situation and ignore the months building up to this point. 6 weeks. Not 6 hours. Weeks. That's 42 Halcyonas in a row of losing. Sorry there's only one "leader" willing to try and he's a rainbow-haired piece of crap in comparison to all your leaders.
6. Pointing out the hypocrisy isn't crying about unfairness, it's pointing out what is being seen by the majority of the server. You guys keep saying "get people in proper raid specs" and no one to guide them in that direction. People don't read chat, people don't get in voice, sorry that the leadership tries and the members don't follow. So now it's a situation of leadership trying, members not listening, and neither of them having the self-attained coordination to make it work without being in comms like you guys. Gear score is irrelevant when there is no coordination. There is no coordination because there is no willingness from more than half the population. And when we ARE able to gather people up, you guys dominate the West because at the end of it all, you personally can drop half the West with 2 God's Whips. And no one wants to stick around and get killed with nothing to show for it. That's not MY personal feeling, because I can survive every one of your guys' combos except Droth. It's what gets voiced.

1. You're the one disbanding the raid, so it's not worth according to you. The faction doesn't disband the raid.
2-6. Not sure how it's pn's fault that you are incapable of organizing a raid. Not once have I heard from anyone that you actually try to get people in comms/proper specs and play as a team. It sounds like you're just throwing out any excuse you can to take the blame off of yourself. It's very obvious you want things to change but don't want to put in the effort. It sucks west has a cheerleader as a raid lead.

 

[Flipsy]

"People don't read chat, people don't get in voice, sorry that the leadership tries and the members don't follow."

Thought that line implied I tried to get people in comms, my mistake if that wasn't made apparent. Sorry! I call out the blame on myself for bad calls being made, at no point do I actually point the blame at anyone else other than myself in any raid I lead. If failures happen, I see it as a fault of my own that I wasn't clear or helpful enough. Sucks that this is a situation where it's you guys talking to only a couple of people so it's word against word, so at this point we're arguing up two sides of the same argument with no end in sight.

EDIT: for your #1: when a raid gets cut in half because they got wiped by a more powerful force and gained no kills, unless the opposing side's numbers also take a hit, the futility increases. Which again pushes the mindset of "why stick around if the end result is dying and getting nothing done?" which is what causes more to leave. It's a vicious cycle! I only disband after I don't see people sticking around and they want to go home. I don't seem to see any complaints from the decision. I'm not Volpe or Zielony rage-disbanding after one death.

 

[Flipsy]

Cherry picking doesn't do much for the argument talking about raid calls in the first half of the sentence you quoted

EDIT: At the end of the day, you either want to foster healthy PVP or you don't. I've tried all I can with what I've got, I know East has tried to recover from losing guys to the PN's and to player retention. Sadly, the dependence on that comes from you guys as well as the vanilla factions. We've seen you guys helping out East, and they've been improving. To be honest, I'm unsure who to ask for improvement tips because every interaction has been hostile as fuck between you guys and West

 

[Vinchino]

Cherry picking doesn't do much for the argument talking about raid calls in the first half of the sentence you quoted

well no shit u can't blame other people for ur bad raid calls. The fact of the matter is, you put 0 effort into leading the west and you fail to see why your 40 man raid can't beat 8 people. No matter how much you try to convince people that you're putting in effort, it's like I said before. Either you're lying to everyone including yourself or you're just so awful at the game that all of your effort goes in vain. Like I said, It's blatantly obvious you're putting in 0 effort other than crying on the forums. You can keep on lying to yourself if you want, no one else really buys it. Cya at halcy pal.

 

[Zing™]

Given the responses here, I think it's pretty clear that in losing PNs we wouldn't be losing much of value.

 

[Hny]

y'all are big dumbos contradicting yourself

halcy raids are pug raids.

let me repeat that, halcy raids are PUG raids.

you have people from different times zones/regions and whatever coming there and you're trying to organize them, telling them how to specc proper raid builds and whatsoever. 50% of them don't even understand what you're saying and just follow the arrow on the map.

the other huge chunk of people that are in the halcy raids are players who are new to pvp.

to keep it short, why are you putting all the pressure on 1 person to organise a raid with new faces that show up all the time that can't even get the basics down compared to you (pn1) + east? lmao

 

[Spookynoodle]

I think something that hasn't been mentioned about this Halcy PvP is that we also kill east unless east are in danger of losing. Why do we do this? Because it's lit, bro.

 

[Crossi]

Dont remove PN's. ppl got fun there so why destroy it. most would be pirates anyway so the red names dont change, only the nation tag which i dont care for.

Greets

 

[Lionheart]

When I led East Halcy, and it wasn't that often, but when I did people knew it was going to be a serious raid., I kicked people that didn't set raid roles, and I kicked people playing dumb classes. The process took 1-2 weeks but after that, you start seeing progress, people joining the raid, and setting role, proper classes, etc.

I've said this again, you start with the "organized" guilds first, tell those people any time you join a public raid, proper specs and raid frames good to go.
When 20/40 people do the roles properly, then you yell a couple of times "SET ROLES OR GTFO RAID", people will fall in line.

We fought West outnumbered, with 5-10 PN2 on our asses, and we still won our fair share of fights.

Another tip? You see 8 PN1s, you have 40 man raid. You mark them. Squishiest first, you mark X whoever needs to be stoned. Say in the raid. "IF PN1 COMES IN AGAIN, EVERYONE JUMPS ON DROTH, DONT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL THAT F*CKER DIES" (sorry droth)

Just a couple of examples, that can help you improve.

And I say this again. Disbanding PNs would solve none of your problems.

 

[Flipsy]

When I led East Halcy, and it wasn't that often, but when I did people knew it was going to be a serious raid., I kicked people that didn't set raid roles, and I kicked people playing dumb classes. The process took 1-2 weeks but after that, you start seeing progress, people joining the raid, and setting role, proper classes, etc.

I've said this again, you start with the "organized" guilds first, tell those people any time you join a public raid, proper specs and raid frames good to go.
When 20/40 people do the roles properly, then you yell a couple of times "SET ROLES OR GTFO RAID", people will fall in line.

...

Another tip? You see 8 PN1s, you have 40 man raid. You mark them. Squishiest first, you mark X whoever needs to be stoned. Say in the raid. "IF PN1 COMES IN AGAIN, EVERYONE JUMPS ON DROTH, DONT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL THAT FUCKER DIES" (sorry droth)

Just a couple of examples, that can help you improve.

And I say this again. Disbanding PNs would solve none of your problems.

Thank you for that, I haven't been as aggressive about kicking for roles, but I will try to find a way to implement that in Also, when you guys run out of render distance or stealth (mostly kirin jumps or stealth deer), the marks I put on you tend to vanish and they have to be reset.

 

[trapwhre02]

Dont remove PN's. ppl got fun there so why destroy it. most would be pirates anyway so the red names dont change, only the nation tag which i dont care for.

Greets

It isn't only the nation tag that changes. No pn's would mean nobody interfering with events on mainland, including halcyona, cr, gr.

I want pns to be send to jail on mainland instead of being rewarded with a nui that puts their respawn location in a perfect position to control the entire event.

Leave mainland events alone so we can enjoy our casual pvp and if you want organized pvp, go to auroria or on the seas.

 

[Drunkenhero]

This thread needs closed. It's simply some valid points mixed in with one person replying and not comprehending people are giving valid advice. It is also something most do not think needs done, economic changes need to be implemented, not a disbanding of player nation's.

 

[Zing™]

This thread needs closed.

No, it doesn't. Look I can make statements too!

It's simply some valid points mixed in with one person replying and not comprehending people are giving valid advice.

There are some valid suggestions, but there are also some very valid reasons why those suggestions simply don't work in a super random, half-the-raid-doesnt-speak-English PUG scenario. Those making suggestions don't always want to acknowledge that; they are in organised PN groups and it's not an issue for them. However not acknowledging facts doesn't change the facts. These are continuing issues that won't ever be truly fixed by just saying they should be on a forum.

It is also something most do not think needs done,

[citation needed]

economic changes need to be implemented

Maybe they do, and certainly it's where your interest lies, but I'm not sure extra money for packs is going to fix what this thread is about.

 

[Drunkenhero]

No, it doesn't. Look I can make statements too!

Free country, still doesn't offer any solutions either. Go quote dissect someone else to death. Won't bother reading as it needs closed as there is no valid points made so far as to WHY the PN's should be removed. Even the small ones you think, they have non English primary language people as well. There has been and will be no valid reasons.

Lord's Coins are the only thing as well as the flat free gold given out to Castle Owners that needs changed to level the playing field. If you think something different, you're an idiot.

 

[Zing™]

Free country, still doesn't offer any solutions either. Go quote dissect someone else to death.

If you aren't prepared to stand behind what you assert, what are you adding? If you hold the one glorious shining truth, let us all in on the secret.

Won't bother reading as it needs closed as there is no valid points made so far as to WHY the PN's should be removed.

So you're putting your fingers in your ears, saying, "LA LA LA LA LA LA" and still somehow know what the contents are? Can there be a philosophical concept known as Schroedinger's Ignorance, and did we just discover it?

Even the small ones you think, they have non English primary language people as well.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at here. PNs have people with English as a second/third/whatever language. No-one suggested they didn't. What they tend not to have are people who can't speak a lick of English, and don't try to communicate or understand. Now I'm not criticising those people per se, but the PNs don't have to deal with them, the southern nations do, and therein lies (part) of the problem.

There has been and will be no valid reasons.

Okay, we'll take your word for it as you've done so well so far expressing yourself.

Lord's Coins are the only thing as well as the flat free gold given out to Castle Owners that needs changed to level the playing field.

Certainly you have a point in terms of gold generation and a not inconsiderable amount of rebalancing that would have to be done, but this is a tangential argument.

If you think something different, you're an idiot.

Oh dear. You don't do yourself any favours.

Not liking the removal of PNs is completely fine - this is just a discussion after all and it's helpful to get all the issues thrashed out. Decrying the existence of the thread, issuing weird declarations that you're not reading said thread and then issuing a big fatwa of stupidity... kind reflects more on you and your inability to contribute. Do better.

That said, I think there is an issue with the way the system works at the moment, although I'm not sure that the removal of PNs is the way to go. At this stage of the game they're inherently built into it. What we can say is that with hindsight, looking at the live servers, we know that the PNs didn't positively impact the health of the game, that they were ultimately removed (or are just about to be), and that given we have the benefit of hindsight, we don't have to follow the XL/Trion path of glorious incompetence.

Taylor made a suggestion above about PN members being sent to jail if killed in the southern continents. I could get behind this. The consequence-free zergling rush of PN from whichever convenient Nui they've been blessed with isn't the most exhilarating thing ever. It's not dissimilar to the solution on live but it keeps the 'prestige' of castles and rewards and all that auroria-based non-southern pvp that PN members claim to want.

Make good points, be less toxic. This will get resolved a lot faster.