Kashi
Member
Once they introduce something truly game breaking in the boxes and money starts raining down on them, the damage will already be done, and they'll be less likely to go a different route.
Why can't we talk about RNG loot boxs?
- Thread starter Scylon
- Start date
I agree with this statement, if people want to talk about the potential of loot boxes they should be free to do so. BUT I want them to release luckys in them personally mostly because I wanna swipe for them rather than get 700g for them.
Aumdaydar
Active Member
that may be true, but they already stated they wanted the speculation to stop. The fact this thread still exists is a miracle in it's own right. In the end, this isn't "our" server. We just play here. The admin's are the one's in control and we are just along for the ride. If the ride get's to "scary" for some then they know how to exit the vehicle. For everyone else, we'll just be thankful we're not on trion's servers.
Bludstained
Member
What if we met in the middle ground though?
Maybe some items that are considered P2W could see an introduction to dungeon drop tables? I think as a private server it should stay completely feasible to be competitive as an entirely F2P player. Donations are just that, we are funding a server and community we love so if there's a nice balance with what you can buy and what can be farmed I'm sure everyone could be happy. Some drops should be dungeon only and some cosmetics or utility items maybe credit only. That way those who farm all their goodies can be proud they have something those who drop hundreds don't. If you give those who don't have the money to spend something to look forward too and something you cant just buy people will be happier.
Look at WoW Classic, most of the rose tinted glasses are because character progression did in fact correlate with time spent. If I spend 10 hours doing a dungeon I want to have something to show for it. Something that can't be bought for 10 bucks.
That's where Trion messed up, in the early days of AA (50 cap) you could farm GHA and get the gearset which at the time was the best one in the game. There was no wallet regrading, so even the people who play hours on hours without spending much of anything were happy because they had a sense of competition and satisfaction that they farmed those items and kept up to those spending the big dollars.
Maybe some items that are considered P2W could see an introduction to dungeon drop tables? I think as a private server it should stay completely feasible to be competitive as an entirely F2P player. Donations are just that, we are funding a server and community we love so if there's a nice balance with what you can buy and what can be farmed I'm sure everyone could be happy. Some drops should be dungeon only and some cosmetics or utility items maybe credit only. That way those who farm all their goodies can be proud they have something those who drop hundreds don't. If you give those who don't have the money to spend something to look forward too and something you cant just buy people will be happier.
Look at WoW Classic, most of the rose tinted glasses are because character progression did in fact correlate with time spent. If I spend 10 hours doing a dungeon I want to have something to show for it. Something that can't be bought for 10 bucks.
That's where Trion messed up, in the early days of AA (50 cap) you could farm GHA and get the gearset which at the time was the best one in the game. There was no wallet regrading, so even the people who play hours on hours without spending much of anything were happy because they had a sense of competition and satisfaction that they farmed those items and kept up to those spending the big dollars.
Scylon
Member
This is the key issue and the point I am trying to get to.
It boils down to someone who played for 4 weeks earned gold to regrade vs someone who swiped for 4 seconds. That = p2w.
This is the best Idea I think as well for character improvement items. Leave the cash shop for cosmetics and a few other bits and bobs. Sticking to "the game is built around the cash shop" is true, but on this server the devs can add these to the loot tables. I think I said it before, put them in dungeons that don't get run often. It will make the content more attractive.
TuckingFypo
Member
You're exaggerating the amount of time it takes now. You can get the gold necessary to regrade in a day's effort, and a lucky (prior to donations being shut down) in maybe 2. 50 dollars cashed before would have gotten you roughly 1k, which was enough for 1 (maybe 2 if you're lucky) luckies.
You want to tell me that players spending 50 dollars to bypass 2 days effort is p2w? The fine line I mentioned before comes into play here and it's what you all seem to be missing big time. P2w implies that a player is gaining an advantage that creates an unrealistic amount of work on free players to be able to stay relevant. P2w does not mean you cash and get an immediate advantage.
Sort of, it will also LOWER the price though, they will be worth 200-300g and you can buy 1 every other day if you want to.
Scylon
Member
True, not denying that. So it will be a 2 week grind vs a 4 second card swipe.
The sad truth is these days players don't want to put in effort (not everyone, but most). It is a fact and because the idea of earning something, or that a game might be too difficult turns people off. So, companies like XL put in a paid shortcut. It sours the experience as a whole in my eyes.
The reality is while there are people who swipe, there will be cash shops. It is a sad fact that games like Archeage, (which as a game is the best MMO i have ever played), is all but dead. This is because people who don't pay can't catch up, leave, and then the P2W leave cause there is no one to beat on.
The advantage of this is it has let to the rise of Archerage. I am crossing my finger, toes, eye and what ever hoping they don't just do the same thing XL is doing.
MizzYukino
New Member
I like the RNG boxes, the gambler comes out in me 
Scylon
Member
Aye,
It was a poor example but the numbers were for illustration purposes only.
But still a newer player getting 600-700 gold in a day is not likely. you need to be established to do that.
TuckingFypo
Member
A newer player shouldn't be aiming to get the gold for regrades in the first place. Everyone has to find their money making method and stick to it, and a new player doesn't get special treatment for this. When they find what they're comfortable with doing, they'll start making money to play out investments and increase how much money they get, which then lets them start regrading comfortably.
Akasha
Active Member
Why would they move away from it? They aren't philanthropic millionaires. This isn't some service to the community to offer the best gaming experience possible. While they seem to take that into account, the purpose of this, is to make money.
soxx
Member
Unfortunately, everyone referring to the idea of "JUST PUT THEM IN DROP TABLES", has gotten 0 response in the matter of. IMO it's a fantastic idea and gives players a much higher amount of content! I haven't run any dungeons for the past week and a half, but even if I knew there was a chance of some luckies, hell, you know I'd max those out every day!
BUT still back to the main point. No. Response. On. The. Topic. Instead. We. Get. RNG. Boxes.
^ I feel this is why the community is unsettled. When multiple alternatives are given yet with no reflection from the devs. I understand RNG boxes are appealing to some and not others, but they should be seen as a short-term fix not an overall fix, or as a last resort when populations are low and there is a massive need for them.
Just because people get luckies in RNG boxes, =/= higher gear score. You're forgetting about the RNG itself. A lucky =/= a divine or epic but simply aprox a 5% chance of one lol. So do the math. Just because players swipe doesn't mean they're going to be completely broken.
BUT still back to the main point. No. Response. On. The. Topic. Instead. We. Get. RNG. Boxes.
^ I feel this is why the community is unsettled. When multiple alternatives are given yet with no reflection from the devs. I understand RNG boxes are appealing to some and not others, but they should be seen as a short-term fix not an overall fix, or as a last resort when populations are low and there is a massive need for them.
Just because people get luckies in RNG boxes, =/= higher gear score. You're forgetting about the RNG itself. A lucky =/= a divine or epic but simply aprox a 5% chance of one lol. So do the math. Just because players swipe doesn't mean they're going to be completely broken.
Silverbranch
Member
It always baffles me how people can say stuff like
"The cash shop is really cheap, it's not p2w"
"You can buy the marketplace items on the AH!"
Hell even "It's only cosmetics!"
P2W historically has two components
1 - Items available via the cash store give you a tangible in game benefit REGARDLESS of whether they're tradeable or not
2- Items available via the cash shop give no tangible ingame benefit HOWEVER they can be sold on the auction house. I.e a tradeable cosmetic.
In both scenario's your ability to type your pin number into the website, gives you advantages ingame, the another player doesn't have.
You can harp on about how "oh a lucky is only a days farming" etc, but as Scylon said, if you can negate 16 hours of me farming, by dropping $20 on the game, then that game is by definition still P2W.
People came to this server and said "oh it's not p2w.". Yes, yes it is. And there's no grey zone here, people say "oh it's not AS p2w". A game is either p2w, or it isn't.
If by plugging in my debit card, I get an advantage, however negligible. Then it can be argued that it is, in atleast some form, p2w. ArcheAge does away with the subtlety and just announces to the world that if you swipe, you can have your advantage.
Love p2w, or hate p2w, if you want ArcheAge in its current form you need to live with it.
"The cash shop is really cheap, it's not p2w"
"You can buy the marketplace items on the AH!"
Hell even "It's only cosmetics!"
P2W historically has two components
1 - Items available via the cash store give you a tangible in game benefit REGARDLESS of whether they're tradeable or not
2- Items available via the cash shop give no tangible ingame benefit HOWEVER they can be sold on the auction house. I.e a tradeable cosmetic.
In both scenario's your ability to type your pin number into the website, gives you advantages ingame, the another player doesn't have.
You can harp on about how "oh a lucky is only a days farming" etc, but as Scylon said, if you can negate 16 hours of me farming, by dropping $20 on the game, then that game is by definition still P2W.
People came to this server and said "oh it's not p2w.". Yes, yes it is. And there's no grey zone here, people say "oh it's not AS p2w". A game is either p2w, or it isn't.
If by plugging in my debit card, I get an advantage, however negligible. Then it can be argued that it is, in atleast some form, p2w. ArcheAge does away with the subtlety and just announces to the world that if you swipe, you can have your advantage.
Love p2w, or hate p2w, if you want ArcheAge in its current form you need to live with it.
soxx
Member
Unfortunately the "whaaaa everything is supposed to be fair no matter what, whaaa" has become the norm of NA. Look at Korean/Asian MMOS where the grind is exponentially larger, they have an actual limit on their # of acc's through social security, gold buying is legal, etc,. Here people expect everything to be balanced and time/money/#of friends you play with to not have any effect on the way everyone progresses in the long haul which makes -100000% sense. IMO
Kain
Active Member
There is a grey zone, it depends on how much benefit you get from cashing instead of playing the game normally, which is why you don't call it pay to win but pay to progress because after all, anything that is in the cash shop can be bought with gold.
If you want to stick strictly to the definition of P2W then this game isn't it, it used to mean paying for things that benefit you and that you couldn't get via ingame resources, that itself is p2w.
This server IS less p2w/pay to progress than officials because your credits just aren't worth as much and shit is cheaper. Yes that means whales can get shit easier but it also means your average player can also afford those things in time.
I also did some math before in this post: https://na.archerage.to/forums/index.php?threads/p2w-rng-boxes.1572/page-2#post-13709
Basically it boils down to 12h ingame for me equals to 100$ worth of credits. (Prices before donations went down. And the silver per labour wasn't exactly that good either.)
Which kind of invalidates your example of 20$ = 16h because you're clearly not doing anything profitable in those 16 hours.
The reality of it, imo, is that people don't want to bother actually finding a profitable source of income. Maybe they get bored, who knows.
And since they can't be bothered to actually get gold ingame they drift towards complaining how people that pay can just get ahead of you. (We all know how easy it is to complain about things.)
I mean, shit, if 100$ for you is worth that little then by all means go ahead and spend it, support the server.
Meanwhile I'll stay f2p and keep playing the server for free while still being able to compete with your average player. (Maybe even above average. Not the top players for sure though.)
Kashi
Member
Because while the server only needs the swipers, the whales need the f2p players, else who are they swiping to massacre? So ideally, you want to prolong the hope of competition in the unwashed masses as long as possible so they keep logging on to be oneshot.
It's crazy, the definition of gambling. Never go to vegas.
Silverbranch
Member
You literally took the section of my post where I said "i can't believe the dumb shit people say with regards to cash shops" and then said it all.