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Ok, I'm back from my ban. What did I miss?
I appreciate what you are trying to do but the numbers are still pretty bad. Guilds are capped at 100 members. The system you propose means a level 8 has to work 4 times as hard to remain active as a level 4. Is that remotely fair? It would mean that all 100 members of a rank 8 guild could have to contribute 40 xp per week. Why not just say every guild from rank 4 to rank 8 must contribute 3000 EXP to remain on the board? They can all have the same number of members and everything would be equal. It doesn't give one guild an unfair advantage over another.

The new system is much fairer than the one originally proposed. Rank 8 guilds have additional benefits that rank 4s do not enjoy; it's not fair for rank 4s to be held to the same requirements as an 8.

I'm in a guild with like 10 active people and maybe 10 more part times, and I feel like the compromise system is fine. We're rank 6. That's 150xp per person per week to maintain, so it doesn't make us burn a ton of gold every month just to keep it going. We can get that with DS packs and a couple guild quests here and there.
 
Can you link me to my words as looks like I said it not even once but "keep saying"?
The only thing I kept saying is that main goal is to remove dead, alt or inactive guilds from the top. This alternative offered will help to do it.
You will be surprised seeing how many active guilds we have and will remain in the Ranking list even if inactive guilds are removed from it.
What you are asking for right now is to let alt guilds keep staying in the ranking list. What is the purpose of it?

How about an option for guild leadership to check the box for RANK US (Used in Siege) Then the original option would be fine, because they can opt in, and XP and Bonus can be required / attained.

How about requiring or tracking just opening / unlocking Guild Missions? 50% attempted participation required for ranking or something.
 
Coming back to guilds EXP requirements we discussed before. I guess the majority agreed the last alternative offered is the best - guilds will not derank but will be removed from the Ranking list if they are not active.
Bonuses are removed as well for now as we remove the daily requirements, but will be added in future - guilds will need to pay for them with EXP and gold to receive them (buff + access to guild bank and their improved versions) and prolong. But that will be optional, meaning, guilds will choose themselves what they want to have and what not.

Here is the full version of offered yesterday alternative, for those who missed it or forgot what we discussed:


After the discussion we also decided that weekly amount required can be reduced twice and that will still prove guild active:
level 1 - 500 EXP
level 2 - 1000 EXP
level 3 - 1500 EXP
level 4 - 2000 EXP
level 5 - 2500 EXP
level 6 - 3000 EXP
level 7 - 3500 EXP
level 8 - 4000 EXP

Will put a question for voting later today in Discord: "Should we switch to this alternative instead of originally announced in patch notes change? - Yes/No"
This is a good middle ground in my eyes, I'm hopeful this will be the final decision. Is it possible for something to be added so that we can check how much guild exp we've earned in a week? If we get to be capped out exp it will be difficult to keep track of how much exp we've earned.

You are wrong here, many people will still do Erenor, even though it got a nerf.

Erenor gear is still stronger than everything else. We say it as we operate real server numbers, not some online calculators with doubtful numbers.
We can't leave Erenor with no changes and let it be much stronger than the rest, we still want to see players on our server playing, not frightened of those few extremely strong and finally just leaving. Due to it Erenor got a nerf as it's power was close to T9 if we'd have such one. One level (T8) was skipped and that led to a gap.

Numbers were carefully calculated by us and recalculated again and again before the decision regarding the nerf % was taken. But we are not just nerfing Erenor but also making its craft much cheaper by reducing its leveling up EXP requirements by 30%.
When you do a comparison you are forgetting that you can roll stats, use unique strong Lunastones and much more.

The only exception here is Erenor jewelry as it doesn't give all Erenor bonuses. We are still looking into it, but if we'll remove a nerf on it, we'll remove leveling up EXP cut as well.

We found it reasonable to reduce leveling up EXP to 30% instead of 5% and 10% to make Erenor cheaper if we nerf it but it will not get any further changes.
Decision on Erenor jewelry will be provided soon.
I will not continue arguing on it and consider Erenor topic closed.
Is making Erenor weapons required 10-20% more exp (not 10-20% more from the 30% nerf, 10-20% more from the baseline) in exchange for no damage nerf an option? Everyone who was planning to make Erenor was fully OK with the amount of exp it took to level. It is extremely costly to make an erenor and even with the 30% exp nerf the 10% damage nerf is devastating. Erenor is supposed to be the end game highest strongest gear, it was designed to be way above anything else, the investment of time and RNG / Gold is equivalent to such. The passives on obsidian t7 weapons are extremely strong, scepters for example have very good matk/magic defense penetration and +8% godswhip damage which is HUGE given that you can evaporate raids with a good godswhip animation cancel. If you look only at base stats, the obsidian gear may be t7, but in reality it is very strong. The rollable stats on Erenor besides your main stats are a crit rate (crit rate is the only good one lol), attack speed and cast time.

The lunastones cannot be used on weapons, they are only for the armor and in fact are hardly unique as they just make up for the reduction from the 21 Ayanad sets to 3 Erenor sets. Erenor armor is also comparatively very weak obsidian gear due to the fact it lacks both the passives of obsidian and also the extremely strong lunafrosts, the synthesizable stats on erenor armor are just your main stats and then the other stats that are missing from the reduction of 21 ayanad sets to 3 erenor sets.

For example, I run an Ayanad Wave set and get Intelligence from the armor, +Received Healing and +Skill Damage as my two set effects. Additionally, I have Lunafrosts in all my pieces: Decreased Casting Delay when hit 30% decrease, Received Damage 3.0% Decrease, Magic Critical Damage 8.0% Increase, Toughness +335 x2. However, if I was to go Erenor set, I would have to use 7 Erenor Wave Lunastones to get my +Skill Damage back and then +452/+560 toughness/resilience and also +70 matk, and then I'd have to roll +Received Healing on every piece. Now with that all my lunafrost slots are taken up, I lose a MASSIVE amount of stats for a HUGE effort ontop of it being nerfed to begin with. On the other hand, every piece of obsidian has STRONG passives on it especially at t7 as well as being able to use the strong lunafrosts from the honor shop. This makes it so that Erenor armor is just not worth pursuing, in fact it was hardly even ever worth pursuing in the first place when it wasn't nerfed.

Also, the online calculators numbers are not doubtful unless you'd like to prove us wrong. Erenor gear, exp, and damage values are very well documented from all iterations of live.
 
This is a good middle ground in my eyes, I'm hopeful this will be the final decision. Is it possible for something to be added so that we can check how much guild exp we've earned in a week? If we get to be capped out exp it will be difficult to keep track of how much exp we've earned.
We are going to add a tracker, so guilds could see how much EXP they got within a week.
 
Coming back to guilds EXP requirements we discussed before. I guess the majority agreed the last alternative offered is the best - guilds will not derank but will be removed from the Ranking list if they are not active.
Bonuses are removed as well for now as we remove the daily requirements, but will be added in future - guilds will need to pay for them with EXP and gold to receive them (buff + access to guild bank and their improved versions) and prolong. But that will be optional, meaning, guilds will choose themselves what they want to have and what not.

Here is the full version of offered yesterday alternative, for those who missed it or forgot what we discussed:


After the discussion we also decided that weekly amount required can be reduced twice and that will still prove guild active:
level 1 - 500 EXP
level 2 - 1000 EXP
level 3 - 1500 EXP
level 4 - 2000 EXP
level 5 - 2500 EXP
level 6 - 3000 EXP
level 7 - 3500 EXP
level 8 - 4000 EXP

Will put a question for voting later today in Discord: "Should we switch to this alternative instead of originally announced in patch notes change? - Yes/No"
@Sparkle I do suggest you make it to where every guild has to hit the same requirement, maybe 2000 - 3000 for all guilds, because lowering the requirement for level 1 guilds means that they will appear on the leaderboard much more easily which lets them siege, a level 1 guild sieging is a red flag for an alt guild sieging. This is the only thing that should be changed if you want to prevent alt guilds from sieging.

Let's say a guild that owns a castle decides to make an alt guild, it starts at level 1, they put 50 people on it before sieges start, meet the requirement in less than an hour because it is only 500xp and they show up on the leaderboard when the week ends, and then they are technically qualifed to be able to siege any castle they want.

EDIT: Ignore this post, this will not serve as a problem
 
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@Sparkle I do suggest you make it to where every guild has to hit the same requirement, maybe 2000 - 3000 for all guilds, because lowering the requirement for level 1 guilds means that they will appear on the leaderboard much more easily which lets them siege, a level 1 guild sieging is a red flag for an alt guild sieging. This is the only thing that should be changed if you want to prevent alt guilds from sieging.

Let's say a guild that owns a castle decides to make an alt guild, it starts at level 1, they put 50 people on it before sieges start, meet the requirement in less than an hour because it is only 500xp and they show up on the leaderboard when the week ends, and then they are technically qualifed to be able to siege any castle they want.
There are enough active guilds rank 4/5/6/7 that any level 1 guilds would be pushed way below the top 20 and not have siege eligibility as per the 3.0b rules.
 
There are enough active guilds rank 4/5/6/7 that any level 1 guilds would be pushed way below the top 20 and not have siege eligibility as per the 3.0b rules.
Oh I apologize, I didn't realize the top 20 thing was the same, in that case ignore my previous post.
 
Ok, I'm back from my ban. What did I miss?


The new system is much fairer than the one originally proposed. Rank 8 guilds have additional benefits that rank 4s do not enjoy; it's not fair for rank 4s to be held to the same requirements as an 8.

I'm in a guild with like 10 active people and maybe 10 more part times, and I feel like the compromise system is fine. We're rank 6. That's 150xp per person per week to maintain, so it doesn't make us burn a ton of gold every month just to keep it going. We can get that with DS packs and a couple guild quests here and there.
Also according to leaderboard rankings, to be in the top 20 you really need to be guild rank 6 or 7 since rankings are based off of guild rank more than anything else. So guild ranks 5 and below will not suffer any consequences whether there was the same requirement for all guilds vs different requirements for each guild level.
 
Also according to leaderboard rankings, to be in the top 20 you really need to be guild rank 6 or 7 since rankings are based off of guild rank more than anything else. So guild ranks 5 and below will not suffer any consequences whether there was the same requirement for all guilds vs different requirements for each guild level.

What I'm talking about is guild buffs. 8s get much better buffs than 4s and access to higher tier items in the prestige shop. If 4s were able to get the same buffs and prestige shop items, they should be bound by the same circumstances, but they are not. There's much more to this than castle sieges, which most guilds below level 6 don't really care about anyway. Some of them may have a future dream of it but for now, they're working on today.
 
Erenor is supposed to be the end game highest strongest gear, it was designed to be way above anything else, the investment of time and RNG / Gold is equivalent to such.

Why would you want the difference between regular players vs extremely dedicated players to be massive? I played Lineage 2 server where a select few heroes hold their status for well over a year because of not just investment but tons of time, 3+ year players. This is what I don't get from some people, you say you want competition but some of you like to wave sticks which basically say "get lost, I've been here for years!".

Enjoy the fact you have competition because it is a healthy server, and it will remain a healthy server because it's under good management/changes! Changes that the koreans/chinese do to their games are purely to milk the whales "they can't ignore these new OP items, profit!". I'm sure you'll still enjoy Erenor equipment (they probably will sort out the jewels/armor bonuses at some stage), you just won't be able to roll your fingers across the keyboard without thinking vs the average player, that is by defintion healthy!
 
What I'm talking about is guild buffs. 8s get much better buffs than 4s and access to higher tier items in the prestige shop. If 4s were able to get the same buffs and prestige shop items, they should be bound by the same circumstances, but they are not. There's much more to this than castle sieges, which most guilds below level 6 don't really care about anyway. Some of them may have a future dream of it but for now, they're working on today.
I'm confused, what sort of buff do they get exactly, and what stops those low level guilds from leveling up to get those prestige shop items?
 
Why would you want the difference between regular players vs extremely dedicated players to be massive? I played Lineage 2 server where a select few heroes hold their status for well over a year because of not just investment but tons of time, 3+ year players. This is what I don't get from some people, you say you want competition but some of you like to wave sticks which basically say "get lost, I've been here for years!".

Enjoy the fact you have competition because it is a healthy server, and it will remain a healthy server because it's under good management/changes! Changes that the koreans/chinese do to their games are purely to milk the whales "they can't ignore these new OP items, profit!". I'm sure you'll still enjoy Erenor equipment (they probably will sort out the jewels/armor bonuses at some stage), you just won't be able to roll your fingers across the keyboard without thinking vs the average player, that is by defintion healthy!

I can already roll my fingers across the keyboard and one shot your average player from full health, its clear you don't participate in PVP if you think thats something that will only happen with Erenor, and both myself and other people in the top 100 can all one shot each other, it's just how the game is. One shotting is just a part of the game, whats the harm in having a larger number appear on your screen when you zap someone? The way the game is built there will always be a massive difference between regular players and the extremely dedicated players until hiram comes out if ever.

My point is that when you take into account the 10% erenor nerf, and take into account the passives on obsidian t7, and then the extreme costs to even make the Erenor and grade it up to Epic+, it turns out that Obsidian T7 is just better overall in 3.5. Erenor is super expensive and even with a 30% exp nerf it costs exponentially more to get beyond the upper limit of current gear. You bring up whales but with obsidian I could easily just swipe and swipe and swipe and brute force it till I got an eternal obs weapon and then it'd take no effort to get it to t7. Obsidian is so strong and its passives are so broken that XL Games later abolishes obsidian entirely and they don't even want to support their legacy servers anymore because of it. A 10% erenor nerf is such a massive blow and makes the weapons just not worth it even at a 30% exp reduction.
 
I'm confused, what sort of buff do they get exactly, and what stops those low level guilds from leveling up to get those prestige shop items?

Guild buffs get better as your guild ranks up.

Nothing is stopping them from getting the rank ups if they put in the work. But Sparkle mentioned earlier as a problem for guilds that are active being harder to find because inactives are clogging up the rank charts. They should not be removed from the ranks if they are active, and they should not be required to meet the same requirements of a level 8 guild to stay on the charts.
 
Guild buffs get better as your guild ranks up.

Nothing is stopping them from getting the rank ups if they put in the work. But Sparkle mentioned earlier as a problem for guilds that are active being harder to find because inactives are clogging up the rank charts. They should not be removed from the ranks if they are active, and they should not be required to meet the same requirements of a level 8 guild to stay on the charts.
They won't be implementing guild buffs, yet.
But I agree with you on the part where not all guilds should have the same requirement.
 
Why would you want the difference between regular players vs extremely dedicated players to be massive? I played Lineage 2 server where a select few heroes hold their status for well over a year because of not just investment but tons of time, 3+ year players. This is what I don't get from some people, you say you want competition but some of you like to wave sticks which basically say "get lost, I've been here for years!".

(Sorry for those that don't understand this reference, but I know Kitaro should) This change would the equivalent of releasing Vesper gear with stats equivalent to Dynasty, while top dogs are running around in Moirai. Why would you farm MoS and Gracia to farm for Vesper gear if its release stats are going to be equivalent-or-worse-than gear someone who just brainlessly farmed Beast Farm? If a player puts forth the effort and dedication towards their Erenor gear, they shouldn't be rewarded with a heavy-handed nerf that would cause a disparity like that on L2, should they?
 
You are wrong here, many people will still do Erenor, even though it got a nerf.

Erenor gear is still stronger than everything else. We say it as we operate real server numbers, not some online calculators with doubtful numbers.
We can't leave Erenor with no changes and let it be much stronger than the rest, we still want to see players on our server playing, not frightened of those few extremely strong and finally just leaving. Due to it Erenor got a nerf as it's power was close to T9 if we'd have such one. One level (T8) was skipped and that led to a gap.

Numbers were carefully calculated by us and recalculated again and again before the decision regarding the nerf % was taken. But we are not just nerfing Erenor but also making its craft much cheaper by reducing its leveling up EXP requirements by 30%.
When you do a comparison you are forgetting that you can roll stats, use unique strong Lunastones and much more.

The only exception here is Erenor jewelry as it doesn't give all Erenor bonuses. We are still looking into it, but if we'll remove a nerf on it, we'll remove leveling up EXP cut as well.

We found it reasonable to reduce leveling up EXP to 30% instead of 5% and 10% to make Erenor cheaper if we nerf it but it will not get any further changes.
Decision on Erenor jewelry will be provided soon.
I will not continue arguing on it and consider Erenor topic closed.
You can do whatever you want with erenor sparkle, I dont care at this point. I would say that the reduced cost to make one is a nice change.

HOWEVER, do not pretend that erenor is "still stronger than everything else." - This statement is 100% not true, no 1000% not true. This is not based on online calculators, it is based on your very own screenshot.
image0.png

Every single player on the server will tell you, that t7 is stronger than that erenor. You cannot just look at base stats lmao, that 23% crit damage is 100x better than an extra 101 melee attack. This goes for 1 handers as well (shortspear for archers, sword for melee) and for bows (crit damage on bow), It goes for healer weapons as t7 healing club has crit heal. THE ONLY weapon that is stronger at erenor is arguably the scepter/staff.

Again I dont care what you do with erenor at this point, but don't just sit there and be dishonest to the people in this thread when we have seen the exact numbers on the weapons because you gave us screenshots
 
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What's the possibility of our player base to reach Eternal on Obsidian gear vs Eternal Erenor? I haven't touched anything related to Erenor discussion because I don't have the experience to talk about it, but I would like to know of the player base that we have right now what % would be able to reach Eternal/Mythic gear in regards of Obsidian vs Erenor?

Is Erenor Mythic easier to get than Obsidian Mythic? Are T7 stats broken vs Erenor with the changes?
 
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