Economy Suggestion - Server needs help!

[greatjustice]

so very wrong, you forgot that for X duration where gold buying was extremely easy and cheap, so many players took advantage of this and achieved a level of gear that wasn't previously possible. Nowadays, if you are a new player; you have zero catch up mechanics in place that mean anything. you cant just have something in the market (in this case gold buying for 2$ per k) and then remove it without causing an extreme gear gap. The only thing they have accomplished is making it harder for newer players to get to a competitive level, or rather cost more. You are correct in saying that there is no push this button to win, but you forget there previously was, and as gear does not go away, the only thing you accomplish is discouraging new players.

the solution - better catch up mechanics, there's plenty of ideas out there. just implement something for the newer players. (Trion did it already)

Having people compete with whales in Archeage has always been a problem with the game since day one. In this version of the game isn't designed to have a catch up mechanism unless the developers step in and significantly change the RNG to make it easier and cheaper to regrade. As it is now you either throw a lot of money into the game or put a lot of time into the game. Buying from a gold seller only hurts the game as they are not sharing any of the profits to help with the costs of running the server. They honestly are not doing anyone any favors. Then too, even if you could buy gold from the developers the more gold that is added into the system, the more things are going to cost. You really don't win either way. The pay to win mechanism is still in place it is just that people will have to buy more credits and deal with the decreased prices as a apart of the player run economy.

 

[Velorra]

the developers step in and significantly change the RNG to make it easier and cheaper to regrade.

This will make it easier for whales to get ahead. When retail had their no-break-no-downgrade regrade events, you know who was getting the Epics? The rich people who already had Legendary gear. Jumping over that Celestial hurdle because of how bad it is in comparison to other grades is a problem for all parties involved. But if you get rid of the risk, then those that already make the most money will just have more opportunities to make better gear for themselves. Getting rid of gear gap by way of giving players more gold or giving players better regrade odds will only increase the gear gap further.

 

[Zinwowee]

Having people compete with whales in Archeage has always been a problem with the game since day one. In this version of the game isn't designed to have a catch up mechanism unless the developers step in and significantly change the RNG to make it easier and cheaper to regrade. As it is now you either throw a lot of money into the game or put a lot of time into the game. Buying from a gold seller only hurts the game as they are not sharing any of the profits to help with the costs of running the server. They honestly are not doing anyone any favors. Then too, even if you could buy gold from the developers the more gold that is added into the system, the more things are going to cost. You really don't win either way. The pay to win mechanism is still in place it is just that people will have to buy more credits and deal with the decreased prices as a apart of the player run economy.

wasn't saying that there isn't always a gear gap. wasn't saying the devs should sell gold. Was simply saying that trion has pretty much solved this issue recently, and this private server could very well take a hint at how it was done. No, we probably cannot implement hiram gear here, and that's fine. but the premise is the same. Introduce a gear to combat obsidian, one that is very slightly affected by rng (rerolling stats), and have that gear be fairly difficult to obtain. Of course there are issues with this like there are in Trion's version, such as the gear having so much resilience when perfectly stacked that nobody can kill you, but again; balancing. My opinion is that the dev team should add a progression based gear set, much like the pieces they added for the custom Hasla Rift, and from there, make a viable way to obtain the gear as a solo player, a guild player, a free player, etc. Once the gear is introduced, balance it correctly to fall in line with obsidian, while still keeping obsidian slightly above to keep the people who spent so much happy. If you want.

A simple incentive for the dev team to add this is also present by Trion already. make the gear set slightly affectable by cash shop means, resulting in a better credit economy, something for players to buy and spend $$$ on. While at the same time, generating revenue for the server. Follow the strict line of what is pay to win and what isn't. Make it reasonable to players and overall everyone will benefit.

 

[kyleran]

Asian MMOs are built for vertical gear progression, you take away that, then we all might as well go play wow.

Gear gaps are unavoidable and its part of games like this.

Celestial no break event may help reduce divine items cost but as a side effect there will be more epics. Thus the gear gaps will stay same.

So back to topic now, all we need is trade pack gold boost event and watch those divines in AH sell like hot cakes.

 

[greatjustice]

This will make it easier for whales to get ahead. When retail had their no-break-no-downgrade regrade events, you know who was getting the Epics? The rich people who already had Legendary gear. Jumping over that Celestial hurdle because of how bad it is in comparison to other grades is a problem for all parties involved. But if you get rid of the risk, then those that already make the most money will just have more opportunities to make better gear for themselves. Getting rid of gear gap by way of giving players more gold or giving players better regrade odds will only increase the gear gap further.

If more gold was introduced it would bring more inflation and rich players will still continue to profit. By making it easier to get to divine or epic which will give people a chance to catch up. So the developers don't have to reinvent the wheel by introducing a new system or to make things more expensive.

 

[greatjustice]

wasn't saying that there isn't always a gear gap. wasn't saying the devs should sell gold. Was simply saying that trion has pretty much solved this issue recently, and this private server could very well take a hint at how it was done. No, we probably cannot implement hiram gear here, and that's fine. but the premise is the same. Introduce a gear to combat obsidian, one that is very slightly affected by rng (rerolling stats), and have that gear be fairly difficult to obtain. Of course there are issues with this like there are in Trion's version, such as the gear having so much resilience when perfectly stacked that nobody can kill you, but again; balancing. My opinion is that the dev team should add a progression based gear set, much like the pieces they added for the custom Hasla Rift, and from there, make a viable way to obtain the gear as a solo player, a guild player, a free player, etc. Once the gear is introduced, balance it correctly to fall in line with obsidian, while still keeping obsidian slightly above to keep the people who spent so much happy. If you want.

A simple incentive for the dev team to add this is also present by Trion already. make the gear set slightly affectable by cash shop means, resulting in a better credit economy, something for players to buy and spend $$$ on. While at the same time, generating revenue for the server. Follow the strict line of what is pay to win and what isn't. Make it reasonable to players and overall everyone will benefit.

While those are some very good points however like with most things trion does that are of any value, it is too little to late for most people. The dungeon and raid gear should have been progression gear. The developers here could change the stats on the dungeon and raid gear to make it more equal to the crafted gear of the same grade without adding more gold into the economy.

 

[greatjustice]

Asian MMOs are built for vertical gear progression, you take away that, then we all might as well go play wow.

Gear gaps are unavoidable and its part of games like this.

Celestial no break event may help reduce divine items cost but as a side effect there will be more epics. Thus the gear gaps will stay same.

So back to topic now, all we need is trade pack gold boost event and watch those divines in AH sell like hot cakes.

They did have that lamp event where you had to complete GHA 10 times for a change at getting a piece of divine gear or weapon. Maybe that could be a once a month event and have it where the tokens and lamp don't expire.

 

[Velorra]

If more gold was introduced it would bring more inflation and rich players will still continue to profit. By making it easier to get to divine or epic which will give people a chance to catch up. So the developers don't have to reinvent the wheel by introducing a new system or to make things more expensive.

New player can farm up just enough gold starting out to regrade a couple of pieces of gear up to Celestial after about a week. Established players can farm up enough gold to regrade a couple of pieces of gear a day. By making it easier to get to Divine or Epic, the richer players will be able to produce more Epics for more attempts to get a Mythic, increasing the gear gap.

Literally the only way to fix the gear gap is to improve the problematic tiers of gear to be viable. Currently, Celestial is the red-headed stepchild of gear grades and while it's great starting out, in the long run it is not good enough to compete against gear that has 11% better stats and has one extra Lunagem slot. Buffing Celestial to be more viable is the only way to fix the gear gap in such a way that it benefits newbies and poor players and gives zero benefit to the rich/established player base.

 

[Jareth]

I'm unsure as to why this topic is turning in to a discussion on gear gaps and finding other ways for players to achieve divine gear.

If the developers improve celestial gear, then we have a game where it is easier to get gear that is somewhat competitive, but still has a broken economy. If the developers add in a way for players to get divine items easier, then we have a game where more players have divine gear, but still has a broken economy.

The only content in this game is the economy. PvP exists purely for economic gain. Gear exists to assist in PvP for economic gain. Having PvP with a broken economy is pointless.

Giving people gear to fight each other in a game with a broken economy is pointless.

That said, I'm not saying these ideas are pointless. All I'm saying is that they are pointless *until the economy is fixed*.

The developers could hand every new player a full set of mythical T6 obsidian, and the economy would still be broken (likely even more broken than it is now).

Gear in any form is not the fix to the current issue.

 

[greatjustice]

I'm unsure as to why this topic is turning in to a discussion on gear gaps and finding other ways for players to achieve divine gear.

If the developers improve celestial gear, then we have a game where it is easier to get gear that is somewhat competitive, but still has a broken economy. If the developers add in a way for players to get divine items easier, then we have a game where more players have divine gear, but still has a broken economy.

The only content in this game is the economy. PvP exists purely for economic gain. Gear exists to assist in PvP for economic gain. Having PvP with a broken economy is pointless.

Giving people gear to fight each other in a game with a broken economy is pointless.

That said, I'm not saying these ideas are pointless. All I'm saying is that they are pointless *until the economy is fixed*.

The developers could hand every new player a full set of mythical T6 obsidian, and the economy would still be broken (likely even more broken than it is now).

Gear in any form is not the fix to the current issue.

Because people want to go back and buy gold from gold sellers instead of doing endless trade runs and farming coin purses and that is somehow going to fix the economy as well as any gear gaps. By removing the gold sellers the economy is fixing itself, it is just people don't want to do what it takes to find other ways to make gold other than to buy from a gold seller or sell tokens. So they have every excuse under the sun why more gold needs to be put into the economy, the gear gap is just one of those excuses.

 

[Velorra]

If the developers add in a way for players to get divine items easier, then we have a game where more players have divine gear, but still has a broken economy.

I keep asking, where is this proof of a broken economy? OP said "tons of gear and items exist but there's no one buying them" and when I asked for proof, he gave me a screenshot of a dozen items, all of two were purchased within 48 hours of his reply for obscenely high prices. The gold exists. The reason prices are so high for stuff is because people like OP buy them for ridiculous prices because they are too impatient to wait for the economy to regulate and prices to go down (his own words, not mine), and as a result people keep posting items for unnecessarily high prices. You want to fix the economy? Tell people to stop buying gear for 300% more than they're worth and the prices will go down. No gold injection required.

 

[Jareth]

I keep asking, where is this proof of a broken economy?

The easy answer to this for most people would be simply to refer you to the in game economy. Most people are able to look at it and see that it is broken - which is why you are the only person with this question in this thread.

The very low end market is ok. Raw resources sell for an ok price.

From there though, the economy starts to get more and more broken the higher in value you go. Cheap gear - unregraded, unupgradeable Magnificent and Epherium and such - doesn't sell for it's cost to produce. Mid to high end gems can take weeks to sell. Large quantities of gilda can take weeks to sell.

I've been on this server for maybe 8 weeks. In that time, starlight archeum dust has dropped 75% of it's value. As this is the dust used most for packs in Diamond Shores, this drop in price indicates more than just issues in jewelry and pet gear crafting.

The same 75% drop in price can be seen in Dawn Lake Light Essence over the same period of time. These are literally not worth the labor to fish for - even if you have the fish on hand it is arguably cheaper to buy them than turn fish in to them.

Now, these are just a few examples. You can look at almost any item in the game and see that it is either not selling or only selling for far less than they should. Sure, some people out there are insisting on holding out for a good price on their goods (which others see as being too high), but for the most part the economy is simply stalled.

It is almost impossible to look at the economy now and not see how it is broken - which leads me to believe that your insistence that it is not broken to simply be some form of trolling. I chose to believe that you are too smart to *not* see it, which leaves trolling as the only viable reason for your position.

In *my* opinion, the issue is one of lack of confidence - the symptoms are essentially the same as when confidence in the economy is low in the real world. The way to fix it is - obviously - to increase confidence. The best way to do this is to increase earnings for those at the bottom, giving them some disposable income to spend, which kick starts the economy back up.

 

[Velorra]

From there though, the economy starts to get more and more broken the higher in value you go. Cheap gear - unregraded, unupgradeable Magnificent and Epherium and such - doesn't sell for it's cost to produce. Mid to high end gems can take weeks to sell. Large quantities of gilda can take weeks to sell.

I've been on this server for maybe 8 weeks. In that time, starlight archeum dust has dropped 75% of it's value. As this is the dust used most for packs in Diamond Shores, this drop in price indicates more than just issues in jewelry and pet gear crafting.

Gilda has been selling like nothing on the West. Also, no one wants to buy Mag/Epherium gear unless they can upgrade it because it's worth less than someone would pay for it. The wisps you get for Evenstoning it is less than half of what it would take to reforge it back up to that grade. That gear is only worth it in Delphinad form because A) it's the most optimal gear to craft that doesn't require an Ayanad scroll and B) an Evenstone on a Delphinad piece of gear will yield enough wisps to reforge an Epherium upgradeable so you can recycle wisps infinitely to get the Delphinad you want. The simple fact of the matter here is you could recoup your losses by Evenstoning it and reforging the gear yourself rather than try to sell a piece of gear that has been irrelevant since 2.0. Why would anyone buy Mag when you can reforge Epherium-upgradeable for less than you get back from using an Evenstone on a Delphinad?

Can you give me more examples like OP instead of generic statements? Or are you referring to lunagems like the Lucid Wave Lunagems? If so, let me do some math for you to prove my point. The average Wave Lunarite cost has gone up to 1.1g. Superior Wave Lunarite is currently half of its average value over the last two weeks of 9g, but I'll use 9g just to slap you in the face with my example. Fine Wave Lunarite is dropping but again, I will use their average amount of 30g instead of current market value of 18g per just to prove my point.

10 Wave Lunarite at 1.1g = 11g
12 Superior Wave Lunarite at 9g = 108g
11 Fine Wave Lunarite at 30g = 330g

330 + 108 + 11 = 449.

Taking into consideration the fact that I'm using the higher selling prices of these items from the past two weeks, it still takes only 450g to craft one of these lunagems. Meanwhile, they're being successfully sold for 700. An item is being sold for more than 55% over its cost in materials. Are YOU the one being stupid? Because I could easily do this math for a myriad of items that you're claiming are and aren't being sold and I feel you still wouldn't listen to what I'm saying.

I've been in-game maybe...1-2 months longer than you have. In that time, castles have changed hands and a large number of properties were 100% unused for days, even weeks at a time. Castles changed hands, and the land is actually getting used for braziers and archeum. Mix that with the cash shop boxes giving archeum and you have an increase in supply with a lack of increase in demand, causing prices to drop. Welcome to economy 101.

Complaint 1: There isn't enough gold in the economy.
Rebuttal: Lucrative items are selling from 55-200% more than they're worth in materials. The gold is there.
Complaint 2: Items aren't being sold in the economy.
Rebuttal: The items listed are fucking worthless in their current form.
Complaint 3: Items are going down in price.
Rebuttal: Increase in supply and non-equal increase in demand will do this, it's basic economics.

All 3 major complaints are dead in the water, you're welcome.

The same 75% drop in price can be seen in Dawn Lake Light Essence over the same period of time. These are literally not worth the labor to fish for - even if you have the fish on hand it is arguably cheaper to buy them than turn fish in to them.

Dawn Lake Light Essence has been dropping and always will be. Why? Because so much of it is being produced by lowbies using bait worm fishing to level and then trying to sell it off. Increase in supply, lack of increase in demand. I swear to God, it isn't that hard to understand. Prices are dropping across certain items because supply is increasing while demand is not, meanwhile prices are increasing on important items because people are putting stuff up for outrageous prices.

People need to stop throwing around misleading facts saying the economy is broken as a reason to ask for gold. You want free gold? Grow some balls and just say "admins need to give us all gold because we're too stupid to make it ourselves and manage it correctly" instead of pussy-footing around the topic.

@Sparkle, this thread should honestly just be closed. This is full of people asking for handouts when they know they won't get it and ignoring simple logic and high-school level economics.

 

[Jareth]

Complaint 1: There isn't enough gold in the economy.
Rebuttal: Lucrative items are selling from 55-200% more than they're worth in materials. The gold is there.
Complaint 2: Items aren't being sold in the economy.
Rebuttal: The items listed are fucking worthless in their current form.
Complaint 3: Items are going down in price.
Rebuttal: Increase in supply and non-equal increase in demand will do this, it's basic economics.

All 3 major complaints are dead in the water, you're welcome.

Actually, the major complaint is that the economy isn't functioning as it should. The three things you listed above are symptoms of the core issue, not the core issue.

The fact that you can't grasp this tells me you are not fit to be in a discussion on a topic like this. Additionally, the fact that you are the lone voice saying the economy is ok should tell *YOU* that you're clearly missing something. If everyone else thinks something different to you, it isn't everyone else that is wrong.

I'm gong to try and give you one more analogy to see if you can understand. I am assuming it is futile, and I am unlikely to directly engage with you in discussion past this post, but I will try.

An economy in a game like this can be looked at like a spinning top. Once the top has been given a good spin, it will continue to spin on it's own, flat and true. This is the sign of a functioning economy - stability, and high currency fluidity.

Our economy is like a spinning top that is starting to wobble. Some parts of it are up, some parts of it are down, none of it is spinning as fast as it should. This means the two signs of a functioning economy - stability and currency fluidity - are not present in our economy like they should be.

Now, the top *is* still spinning. In fact, if all you do is focus on the tip of the top, you would hardly even notice that something is wrong. It isn't until you look at the *whole* economy that you realize how big the wobble is, and how much the top has slowed down.

Now, if you've ever seen a spinning top, you know what happens to it shortly after it starts to wobble. You also know the only way to get it spinning again is to physically spin it up yourself.

Just handing out free gold would be like spinning the top far faster than it is designed to be spun. It would fly off and hit the wall or something - basically it would be a bigger mess than what we have. What I want is a controlled, focused and short term spin of the servers economy to get things back up and running again.

Games like EVE (and soon, Ashes of Creation) have dedicated economists to deal with this sort of thing that are much more specialized than I am in this field, but those games - as well as the Trion version of this game - have far greater toolsets to use to combat this issue than the developers here have.

 

[Velorra]

Actually, the major complaint is that the economy isn't functioning as it should. The three things you listed above are symptoms of the core issue, not the core issue.

The fact that you can't grasp this tells me you are not fit to be in a discussion on a topic like this. Additionally, the fact that you are the lone voice saying the economy is ok should tell *YOU* that you're clearly missing something. If everyone else thinks something different to you, it isn't everyone else that is wrong.

When one person thinks selling credits to a general merchant for gold isn't injecting gold into the economy and someone else in agreeance to the topic thinks it should be profitable to sell Azaleas, it IS everyone else that's wrong.

...snip...

Your analogy works if the economy were constantly evolving. In a real-world economy, new things get added and things adjust based on want and need. The thing is here we have a stagnant set of items. Things aren't getting added and adjustment is based on overall time in the game and not advancement of technology. That being said:

You aren't in agreement with the OP so it's much easier to have a conversation with you than that brick wall posing as a human being. Natural injection can be a small band-aid to the larger issue: human mindset. If people stop spending gold that they have on an item that is being posted for 3x what it should be selling for, they'll have that much more gold in their pockets to spend elsewhere. As I've said before, the gold is there. There doesn't need to be injection, there needs to be reduction in greed. For instance, a guild member of mine almost purchased a Divine piece of gear for 12k gold and I told him to hold off on it because...seriously wtf 12k? 3 weeks later, he's not only made 10k more gold, that piece of gear dropped down to 4.5k. So the economy in that small section went from having a 12k surplus to having a 22k-4.5k=17.5k surplus...all because the greedy mofo that wanted 12k for an item worth a third of that price was losing money on his listing fees and had to drop it.

Your analogy is......wishy washy. It's just that when a person is sitting here on a forum saying they want artificial gold injection because the economy is broken when it isn't, that isn't adjusting or spinning the top back up. When a person thinks they should be able to make a fortune selling stacks of Azaleas on the open market, that's not adjusting. That's spinning the top once, then complaining as soon as it stops being perfectly balanced.

 

[Tiptoe]

Well, it looks like Sparkle might have been right. Things seem to be on the mend. I've had a really good sales week this week. I've sold everything and a lot of my prices seem to have recovered.

I stopped selling for awhile (I simply refused to sell stuff at such low prices) and it looks like other carebears did the same. So the prices 'seem' to be coming up again *touch wood* (I don't want to jinx it).

Even the price of credits seem to be slowly rising again.

As for Azaleas, I don't know what I said to make someone fixate on them. But I've never sold Azaleas in my life! I simply used them as an example because the returns are so poor .

The point I was trying to make, is that it would be nice to have some other sources of gold generation (especially ones that don't involve PvP) such as farmers having the option to sell their produce (things like Azaleas!) to the NPC instead of having to rely on other players to buy it.

But for now, as long as I can make a profit, I'm happy .

 

[Jareth]

When one person thinks selling credits to a general merchant for gold isn't injecting gold into the economy and someone else in agreeance to the topic thinks it should be profitable to sell Azaleas, it IS everyone else that's wrong.

Many people think the economy needs to be addressed, even if they have different ideas on how to do it.

One person thinks it is fine.

Your analogy works if the economy were constantly evolving.

This right here is perhaps the essence of my position on the topic, and you have just said it better than I seem to have been able to manage myself.

Our servers economy has been too stagnant for too long. It needs to be spun back up.

XL games - for all their failings - have been able to be counted on to always spin up the games economy every few months. Adding obsidian gear, pet gear, Ayanad gear, Eronor gear, and even upgradable ship components all gave the live server a good spin to keep the economy going.

That is what this server needs.

It could be done in a number of different ways. My personal preference is to put in weekly events where one of the three primary gold generating (not gold earning) professions gain a boost to the gold they make. Not free gold - just an occasional increase to the gold people already earn.

What this *should* do is increase the spending bracket that many people are in. Rather than adding a new bracket to the top of the market, it simply moves some people up one bracket in the existing market. The effect on the overall economy should be similar - more people wanting to buy more items of a type they didn't previously consider, leading to more people selling more items of a greater variety, which in turn leads to more people crafting more items of greater variety.

Basically, the spinning top would have been respun.

Now, as I've said before, adding free gold is bad. Very bad. Adding a well controlled increase in earned gold should, however, be good.

 

[Jareth]

Well, it looks like Sparkle might have been right. Things seem to be on the mend. I've had a really good sales week this week. I've sold everything and a lot of my prices seem to have recovered.

I stopped selling for awhile (I simply refused to sell stuff at such low prices) and it looks like other carebears did the same. So the prices 'seem' to be coming up again *touch wood* (I don't want to jinx it).

Even the price of credits seem to be slowly rising again.

As for Azaleas, I don't know what I said to make someone fixate on them. But I've never sold Azaleas in my life! I simply used them as an example because the returns are so poor .

The point I was trying to make, is that it would be nice to have some other sources of gold generation (especially ones that don't involve PvP) such as farmers having the option to sell their produce (things like Azaleas!) to the NPC instead of having to rely on other players to buy it.

But for now, as long as I can make a profit, I'm happy .

I've seen an increase in raw materials sales, but no increase in sales of anything crafted.

I've also seen a decrease in raw materials listed.

This leads me to believe that my increase in raw materials sales is simply due to fewer people selling them, not to the initial signs of an economcs upturn.

 

[Tiptoe]

I've seen an increase in raw materials sales, but no increase in sales of anything crafted.

I've also seen a decrease in raw materials listed.

This leads me to believe that my increase in raw materials sales is simply due to fewer people selling them, not to the initial signs of an economcs upturn.

Yes, that's what I'm afraid of as well. Fewer people are selling, so the supply is drying up and prices are being pushed higher. But I'm trying to stay optimistic

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking, but I really hope things are starting to stabilize. Let's give it another week or two.

But I have to say, I love some of your ideas, especially this one:

My personal preference is to put in weekly events where one of the three primary gold generating (not gold earning) professions gain a boost to the gold they make. Not free gold - just an occasional increase to the gold people already earn.

It's nothing overpowering, just a subtle boost to the economy .

Edit: One encouraging sign I've noticed over the past week or so, is a lot more trade carts going past me. And although there doesn't seem to be much farming going on, I see a lot of staged trade packs on the farms around me. So I'm hopeful that people are starting to do more trade runs which will help kick things along.

 

[Tinnic]

Good thread very important topic......are you the biggest credit seller epic or just the most noticed seller ?