Should PLAYER NATIONS be removed?

[Flipsy]

On a serious note there's no way to realistically compensate a PN. There's no way you can just remove a guild and a whole community of people playing together because it doesn't seem fair from your perspective.
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As I said above there is no way to get a fair compensation for deleting a player nation. And you shouldn't be able to say 'I don't think this is fair, please sparkle delete PN's'. Also if you really want this server to stand out from live than how does it make sense that they should delete the PN's? So as you said Why follow in their footsteps?

Correct, there is no realistic compensation, but it's becoming a necessity from what I see. Server transfers and PN's ruined Live, why keep them here?

You do understand that many player nation members don't even login anymore due to lack of PvP right? This is basically a free catch up mechanic for you guys. That's why we complain about PvP. I've seen a East/West players not even try to improve their gear. This is how you say... ...You're correct, gear progression is the most important thing in Archeage. Gear progression is how you view positive growth of a server. Notice how the top gear score players we're still sitting where they were a few months ago for a long time before the server became more active. And notice that as the PvP has died, that gear progression for a lot of the players hasn't really increased all that much.

On the other side of this if a player doesn't want to PvP, they shouldn't show up to a PvP event, and also they should be rewarded for winning PvP events. If you guys don't want to PvP that's fine. But I'm not sure what that has to do with us being able to stomp you, last I checked, you guys don't even show up to anything anymore. And when did it become my responsibility to help a faction grow? Until 4.5, Archeage is a guild based game. Factions are just a formality. There's no reason to work as a faction, bloodlusting alone makes this a cold hard fact of the game. Why would I work with you when I can just kill you instead? And aren't we helping East by allying with them? We literally help them at all times of the day to do events so that way they can get geared.

This essay is relevant...eventually. I won't TLDR it because this is a discussion and anecdotes help any discussion as long as they are related to the topic, from my experience.

I've attempted to go down a better road with the West than our predecessors in order to make SOME form of PVP happen that can be deemed fair. I'm sure their opinions don't mean much, but I've attempted to help the West a LOT, and they've made quite a bit of progress despite being undergeared and untrained! I'm honestly very proud of them. I went from a reset Halcy of 9 people (6 being my own guild) showing up for 10 kills to over a full raid consistently back when Gildarmesh was still playing and leading, and those fights were incredibly fun and even when we lost, whether it be an off day where only 30 people showed up or we got beat in a 60v60 by the skin of their teeth, they were enjoyable and we all learned something every day from it (thank you to Lads for the many learning experiences btw ).

But since then, the East was hit by a population problem with a handful of their fighters joining a Player Nation (eventually congregating to PN1), and I still attempted to help those East members remaining at reset, as I believe Footlong can attest to. The alliance with PN1 has presented a large problem, because as far as I can see, a "fair fight" isn't something wanted. PN1 has a solid 10 people that can wipe out a full raid of either faction (sans a few strong guilds on either side), and so they trickle members into the fight until eventually they win. Then the faction they beat 1:5 is demoralized and stop showing up to events, meaning they stop attempting to improve their gear and skills because they know the inevitable outcome is the Player Nation members will call in more DPS, more healers, and eventually win a straight up fight. This isn't a time for a catch up mechanic when 90% of a raid is comprised of players that one archer can sweep down with 1 Missile Rain, or one mage can drop with 2/5 God's Whips. These players don't have as much confidence in those next to them as you do, they don't have the experience in PVP that you do, and they don't have (literally) half the gear you guys do. As I said in another thread, your average gear score combined is nearing 6.5k. No guild on the East or West can even compare to that average. So when these 2500-4500 GS players see people 2-3x stronger than them coming to one-shot them, why do you think they should keep returning? You learn nothing being one-shot aside from "don't go to the event again". I'm not talking about Halcy, I'm talking about something as stupid-simple as CR and GR.

Is that what is really wanted with the Pending Collapse nation here? To be kings of a mountain of ashes? Because I personally have tried to make this activity issue better at reset from the West at least (which has been hellaciously attacked since I started here a year ago for not showing to Halcyona), but every step forward is immediately set back 2 steps by people who then throw toxic behavior into the mix and expect people to willingly stick around for it. I've legitimately tried, and when I step away from the game for 3 days to work on other games that my community plays, I am met with hate mails and PM's and the like from people, accusing me of dodging PVP and running away and telling the West to stay away from events so they don't get the PVP they desperately desire. The West doesn't want to be met with toxicity in a game they play for fun, but it's either a complete steamroll by PN, or a steamroll of the 5 East that show up by the 15 West that x up for reset. That's what this situation has torn itself down to.

TL: DR
Flipsy is just mad and everything he said in his post is one sided and opinionated.

You guys spend a lot of time putting words in my mouth, I am flattered by this. But as I said before, I stepped up to lead a reset Halcy when no one on the West would, and spent 4 weeks improving it through positive behavior and there has been a drastic improvement in how the West handles itself, which I don't recall seeing in my time on the server. I'm not saying I'm good at this at all (I'm not), but at least I'm trying to improve things "back home". I'm not mad at all, not sure where you are coming from with that...but I do like the same exact arguments you guys bring to the table with this topic. It's almost like your posts are all one-sided and opinionated

Tl;Dr every geared / good player went pn and main factions don’t know how to play come back and carry us xD

See previous reply to Burlin's TLDR.

 

[Hny]

Please stop with the irrelevant troll posts. You should know that the devs and Sparkle are watching by now lol

 

[Burlin]

I just uprooted a Marcala Territory Tree. Flipsy is right PN's Should be removed. They can't even protect some trees.

 

[trapwhre02]

Entirely removing PNs shouldn't happen in my opinion for two reasons:
1. It took a big investment to build one
2. It gives players from different factions the option to play together and hold a castle.

But PNs shouldn't be as they are now. Our server doesn't have, and might not ever have the population retail had. 125 players in each of the theoretically infinitely possible amount of PNs is too much.
It drains the population of the vanilla faction in an unhealthy way. Those factions are the ones new players see the very first time. The size of GR/CR, MM, Halcy raids etc. are what creates a first impression to those who join us here. Seeing 20 People in a west halcyona raid doesn't seem like something, that would motivate me as a new player to set foot on this server and build up my character. I mean, what for ? Why should I stay here and invest a majority of my free-time in a game that I will not be able to enjoy to its full potential ? Why gear up for a year only so I can fight in not even half a raid.

This server needs new players and it will always do so because people naturally leave everyday. Anything that has a negative impact on new players and anything that could drive them away, should be carefully looked into. By both sides, the devs and by us - the players.

The vanilla factions don't have enough of a population to fight a nation with such a big player pool. We in west can just barely fight off a CR/GR interruption by a PN with a full raid. And that is only if some key players of west are in that raid who carry it.
There is absolutely no room for new upcoming guilds to attempt anything outside of faction events. PNs have scouts scattered all across the server and guild discords, that make it a real pain to get anything done. A small hint by anyone and your raid of sub 6Ks which is trying to learn and practise boss mechanics suddenly faces a contesting 15-20 man raid full of geared 6-8Ks.

Those who are against a nerf or removal of PNs always say something like:
"You have 20 players above 7K in west/east."
"West has a guild with 5K average gearscore and 100 players."
Or similar things. Yes but those don't share timezones as much as the core of PNs do, they aren't all active pvpers, there is just so much flawed with those arguments.

You simply cannot say "Theoretically west or east could zerg us with their numbers and geared players, so nothing should change and they just have to get organized."

While it is a possibility, it is an unrealistic one and a horrible excuse as to why PNs should continue to rule above all others.

Yes PNs bring a lot of drama that is part of AA and makes it enjoyable for some. It creates PVP, it can motivate players to step up, take the wheel and try to push their own guild/faction to contest PNs and their motivation is driven by anger and frustration due to oppression and hope to make a change.

But that motivation never really lasts for anyone long enough to truly make a difference. Any attempt to build up a guild is going to get shut down. PNs have full control of who they want to keep powerless and who should gain some.

My suggestions, as mentioned by someone else already:

1. Lower the player cap in player nations to reduce their power and server-ruling abilities.
A number can be discussed. I think it should be high enough to keep and defend a castle, but nothing above it. (60-70?)
This would need to come with a restriction of how many nations can be built, as they could just go and create a second one to go back to how it's been before.

2. Increase / change and adjust alliance mechanics.
Alliances shouldn't cost LCs. PNs are generating them left and right, it's no big deal to them keeping an alliance up it seems. Increase the cost or change the required items. LCs are generated at a too fast pace which basically lets you have infnitely long alliances. It should be a mat and in quantities that are much more limited so you cannot go and set up an alliance whenever a soverign wants to. It should be required to plan and prepare for one.
And give it a cooldown. Weeks of non-stop oppression without a pause, are killing vanilla factions.

Most PN players are leaving for AAU anyways, the players possibly upset about such changes don't even have a proper reason to. I'll just go and say most would be against a nerf to PNs simply out of principle, that they don't want people that haven't "worked" for something like they did, are being rewarded. That the "whiners and those who cry loudest" are the ones that win this. But this is a topic about server health, and I really don't see how keeping it as it is now, is more beneficial than at the very least tweaking it.

I spend a lot of time here and made a lot of friends on the way. I don't want to see the servers heartbeat stop this early only because some very self-centred players who have too much influence on the lifetime of this server, don't give a damn about it and much rather see it die and piss on it's grave than seeing themselves having to get along with a change they don't like for stupid reasons.

 

[Flipsy]

Please stop with the irrelevant troll posts. You should know that the devs and Sparkle are watching by now lol

No, they can do what they want, it only hinders their counter-point. A couple of weeks ago, I took one day off of leading reset raid in the last 3 months, and apparently 0 West showed up to Halcy. I received a PM on Discord from one of their members and a few of them got into faction chat and my DM's spamming lots of crap about me for a good 10-15 minutes because no one else took the helm of the West reset raid when I decided to go out to dinner with my wife. I still try to lead raids when I can and attempt to help other West members when the going gets tough It is just a game, after all.

 

[Spookynoodle]

When you guys steamroll east at Halcy it's just fun PvP, when east gets 10 PN members you guys port out to 'make a point', honestly I think you're losing it, bud.

 

[Burlin]

1. Lower the player cap in player nations to reduce their power and server-ruling abilities.
A number can be discussed. I think it should be high enough to keep and defend a castle, but nothing above it. (60-70?)
This would need to come with a restriction of how many nations can be built, as they could just go and create a second one to go back to how it's been before.

2. Increase / change and adjust alliance mechanics.
Alliances shouldn't cost LCs. PNs are generating them left and right, it's no big deal to them keeping an alliance up it seems. Increase the cost or change the required items. LCs are generated at a too fast pace which basically lets you have infnitely long alliances. It should be a mat and in quantities that are much more limited so you cannot go and set up an alliance whenever a soverign wants to. It should be required to plan and prepare for one.
And give it a cooldown. Weeks of non-stop oppression without a pause, are killing vanilla factions.

In response to the first part that's basically what the players are now. You're aren't achieving anything by doing this. They would also need to remove the restrictions on holding a castle so that way you can hold 2 castles as a PN. These were changes already made by the Admins to restrict PN's. So doing so would be counter productive.

As for the 2nd. That is something that would be fine, but you still wouldn't be getting to the main problems that we're already stated. Most of the time PN's just ally for Halcy so they get the free honor. We would still show up and kill people and win and gate the event. It still isn't a concrete fix to the main issues.

 

[trapwhre02]

I appreciate your constructive criticism.
Feel free to make suggestions, I'm sure there is a solution that benefits the server and is somewhat accepted by all sides.

 

[Flipsy]

When you guys steamroll east at Halcy it's just fun PvP, when east gets 10 PN members you guys port out to 'make a point', honestly I think you're losing it, bud.

As I said before: it's either a steamroll by you, or a 5v15 favoring West. Whenever we beat East, we still talk friendly with them and I even ask members of my raid to stay back and give them their 10 kills as East has done before when I had started leading Halcy. But when East beats West, we're met constantly with "WHERE'S WEST, YOU GUYS FUCKING SUCK" and all other negative notions that come with it. We don't one-shot anyone on the East, the fights are drawn out to be much longer than just 4 seconds, it's just a numbers and coordination problem (East doesn't really have any initiators...plenty of healers, though!) I was in the works of making Halcy more fair by taking my guys out of the fight and being more of a delegatory role (or advisory if someone wanted to take the helm for calling the shots), but then the alliance happened and...well the rest is history, as they say.

-stuff-

As for the 2nd. That is something that would be fine, but you still wouldn't be getting to the main problems that we're already stated. Most of the time PN's just ally for Halcy so they get the free honor. We would still show up and kill people and win and gate the event. It still isn't a concrete fix to the main issues.

The population limit has always been something brought up about PN's, and everyone is correct that there is no viable compensation for disbanding it, so...What if PN populations get cut down, alliance opportunities get removed, the leaders "draft pick" their members again, and the penalty for leaving a nation increases? Too many times we have seen players hop from one player nation back to the vanilla/home nation to a player nation again and repeat this behavior ad nauseum. When those players return to their home nations (I see this on West, at the very least), they are typically insulted and told to gtfo and shunned because they're "just back for medals and honor", which I'm sure could be the case for some of them. Why not make the act of joining a PN a more permanent one? PN is supposed to be the new "end-game goal" or...something, right? So why not make it a permanent transfer/fixture instead of something that can be made so flexible?

 

[Zecen]

I always felt when PN's were first introduced into this game that it would be a poison that would slowly kill this server.
Having the option of being able to put all high gear scored players into a nation that has almost zero consequence for stepping onto east/west land was always a bad idea. That's why as a pirate you get jailed and nuked by the neutral guards, because you don't belong on that land and having the ability to have combined east/west forces is somewhat over powered.
PN nations either need to be taken out, or nerfed a lot, because it was always a bad idea.

 

[Hny]

I appreciate your constructive criticism.
Feel free to make suggestions, I'm sure there is a solution that benefits the server and is somewhat accepted by all sides.

You'll always upset someone and there will always be players leaving. Main focus should be the health of the server long-term.

 

[trapwhre02]

When you guys steamroll east at Halcy it's just fun PvP, when east gets 10 PN members you guys port out to 'make a point', honestly I think you're losing it, bud.

I personally don't enjoy those scenarios at all. Fighting 10 easts with 50 wests is super boring. Believe it or not. When Flipsy was leading halcys and the reset ones were somewhat equal 40vs40,those were some of the most enjoyable fights I've ever had here. We still lost a few but seeing the progress west had made thanks to him made me not care about losing at all. The fights were hella fun, regardless of outcome. Straight out of a picture book.

 

[Burlin]

The population limit has always been something brought up about PN's, and everyone is correct that there is no viable compensation for disbanding it, so...What if PN populations get cut down, alliance opportunities get removed, the leaders "draft pick" their members again, and the penalty for leaving a nation increases? Too many times we have seen players hop from one player nation back to the vanilla/home nation to a player nation again and repeat this behavior ad nauseum. When those players return to their home nations (I see this on West, at the very least), they are typically insulted and told to gtfo and shunned because they're "just back for medals and honor", which I'm sure could be the case for some of them. Why not make the act of joining a PN a more permanent one? PN is supposed to be the new "end-game goal" or...something, right? So why not make it a permanent transfer/fixture instead of something that can be made so flexible?

The Admins have already done this. Original player cap for PN's was 250(?) or something like that and they could hold all 6 castles. Right now, we are limited to 2 castles and 125 player cap. And with the custom server changes for castles, you need 100 players minimum to hold both of those castles. So since the population in my opinion has already been gutted there's no point to limit it further. And reducing the population would have the opposite effect on alliances. They would be even more important than before. So that would make your other point obsolete. Instead of trying to remove alliances, that would only further them. And the if we compare PN's to Pirates as you all have before. Then Pirates should have to stay pirate forever, no title flipping for them. If it's such a wide spread problem then just kick them raids.

I appreciate your constructive criticism.
Feel free to make suggestions, I'm sure there is a solution that benefits the server and is somewhat accepted by all sides.

Honestly there is no cut and dry option that can be taken to reduce PN's influences. Everything has a downside and upside for different people.

I always felt when PN's were first introduced into this game that it would be a poison that would slowly kill this server.
Having the option of being able to put all high gear scored players into a nation that has almost zero consequence for stepping onto east/west land was always a bad idea. That's why as a pirate you get jailed and nuked by the neutral guards, because you don't belong on that land and having the ability to have combined east/west forces is somewhat over powered.
PN nations either need to be taken out, or nerfed a lot, because it was always a bad idea.

As stated above they already have been gutted by the admins. And for the pirate idea, the custom changes made by previous pirates made it so that many of the places that have PvP and endgame events do not jail you as a pirate. Which is why you'll see a lot of people saying that there is really no downside to flipping pirate.

And I'll say this again, this game up until patch 4.5 is fully a Guild based game. Not faction.

 

[trapwhre02]

Honestly there is no cut and dry option that can be taken to reduce PN's influences. Everything has a downside and upside for different people.

Yes but that isn't a reason to just quit it right here. As I've said before, feel free to give us improved suggestions. There is no way to 100% satisfy all sides, that is obvious. But there is a way to approach this in a way that both sides eventually accept and be happy with in the long-term.

 

[Flipsy]

The Admins have already done this. Original player cap for PN's was 250(?) or something like that and they could hold all 6 castles. Right now, we are limited to 2 castles and 125 player cap. And with the custom server changes for castles, you need 100 players minimum to hold both of those castles. So since the population in my opinion has already been gutted there's no point to limit it further. And reducing the population would have the opposite effect on alliances. They would be even more important than before. So that would make your other point obsolete. Instead of trying to remove alliances, that would only further them. And the if we compare PN's to Pirates as you all have before. Then Pirates should have to stay pirate forever, no title flipping for them. If it's such a wide spread problem then just kick them raids.

This is not in a negative light (I can't think of the perfect way to type this question out, and tone doesn't translate well with text-only): Do you have any suggestions aside from "leave it as it is"? Because the current situation is this:
1a. PN1 allies with a vanilla nation and carries that nation to victory by steamrolling the other nation, demoralizing them.
1.b PN1 allies with no one and steamrolls any nation they desire, demoralizing them.
2. PN1 complains there is no one left to fight, because they apparently expect the people they're stomping into the mud to willingly sit on 1-minute respawn timers for their entertainment.
3. PN1 attempts to personally attack anyone that attempts to make a difference on the server that isn't bowing to their nation, giving their gear up and quitting.
4. PN1 recruits people who reach a high GS but obviously can't do content on their home faction because of aforementioned demoralizing of the home nation.
5. Repeat.

So what's the alternative suggestion? Because as I've stated before, I've attempted to help the West, but I am only one person and my guild is just one group of players here, and population is getting hurt and the source seems to all stem from Player Nations. This isn't a personal sleight on you, PN2 had the same exact "direction" as seen from the home nations, but they're basically gone now.

When I see any form of positive movement, I see it as a victory because I remember the defeated West I took charge of, and it might not be up to standards of being a "successful faction", but I'm still proud of the forward movement and the progression they've made thus far. With the ebb and flow of the server, the East is hitting their rough patch now and I'm loving their leadership never giving up and still trying to rally their guys to do events at reset, but the actions of Player Nations (PN1, specifically) have hurt this server's population more than it has helped, all in the name of wanting PVP. To me, the best way to get that PVP isn't to stifle growth of the home factions, it's to help the guilds in those home factions get stronger. Make your own PVP, don't step all over people weaker than you and expect them to just rise up from being one-shot and magically be able to do something you want. And that's all my point is. Suppressing players in order to coerce absorption doesn't get you the effect you desire, it gets you into this lovely mess, where the stronger of the 2 vanilla factions has to begrudgingly join an event knowing the inevitable outcome is being stomped out and being insulted for not saying "Thank you".

 

[havockitty]

This discusion is like a year to late thats one.
Last topic about PN was closed u can still read it i think.
Damage done by PN's is already here u cant undone it and removing PN or nerfing it will not change a thing. Its just to late.

 

[Hny]

This discusion is like a year to late thats one.
Last topic about PN was closed u can still read it i think.
Damage done by PN's is already here u cant undone it and removing PN or nerfing it will not change a thing. Its just to late.

I started playing this server last year around winter time so I probably missed it lol

 

[Flipsy]

This discusion is like a year to late thats one.
Last topic about PN was closed u can still read it i think.
Damage done by PN's is already here u cant undone it and removing PN or nerfing it will not change a thing. Its just to late.

The damage has been done, you are correct. But we can already see the decline by keeping them. Keeping PN (the original or this nerfed version) is written, proven, set-in-stone bad for the server. We're all watching it happen. What's removing them going to do that keeping them isn't already doing?

 

[Hny]

The damage has been done, you are correct. But we can already see the decline by keeping them. Keeping PN (the original or this nerfed version) is written, proven, set-in-stone bad for the server. We're all watching it happen. What's removing them going to do that keeping them isn't already doing?

Yup, damage has been done and it has progressed very far but you can always do something against it, otherwise the server will just turn towards a dead end.

 

[Velorra]

The damage has been done, you are correct. But we can already see the decline by keeping them. Keeping PN (the original or this nerfed version) is written, proven, set-in-stone bad for the server. We're all watching it happen. What's removing them going to do that keeping them isn't already doing?

This exactly. Keep it the way it is, you 100% know what's going to happen with the population flow/engagement. (See: here, and Live servers)

If PN's are disbanded:
- Breaks up the toxic influence PNs (the nations themselves, not the people - I'm friends with quite a few PNs) are having on the server's events/morale. (If they weren't having a negative effect, then nobody would be speaking up, so this is a valid concern to many.)
- New players choose simply from 2 sides, where there would now be a distributed mix of pvp focussed and pve focussed players. The point is, there's only 2 pools of players, rather than 3+ splitting up the overall player pool.
- There's nothing stopping the ex-PNs from creating their own guild on the home faction and continuing their "exclusive, elitist, cool kid club". Because really, aside from that distinction, there is no actual practical purpose of splitting off into your own nation. (Now, if the player nation was freely open for players to join on character creation, that's another story - then it would truly be just another faction and a whole other discussion.)

I understand the requirements to creating a PN are huge. However, is keeping them purely for the sake of that worth the ever-worsening state of server morale? Compensate the PNs. Refund the gold/materials, I don't care how it's done. I'd even donate gold because I truly believe this would be best for the health of the server - put your money where your mouth is, no?

Edit: fixed a typo