This thread is for discussing 4.5.
We are not going to confirm anything until we bring the customised patch notes.
ArcheRage 4.5: "Legends Return" - Pre-Update Official Discussion Thread
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We are not going to confirm anything until we bring the customised patch notes.
Hiram T1 and Awoken(Radiant) Hiram (T2) are apart of 4.5
Vampiris
Active Member
Ok, so maybe nerf hiram, to not become almost the same (or better!?) as erenor gear and be better than the ayanad gear. The divine hiram is better than divine ayanad. We can discuss this? Hiram gear is essentially PVP gear, Hiram comes with PVP stats that no other gear set in the game gives. The extra Resilience and toughness will put you ahead of DPS in terms of PVP.
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DrRageQuit
Well-Known Member
Guild cap should remain at 100. 19 of the top 20 guilds have player counts above 50. Being forced to aggressively purge people who are less active in order to bring on new people puts pressure on players to be more and more active to compete for the place in their guild. I don't think anybody here needs to feel more burnout.
Invince cooldown should be implemented. One get out of jail free card per player is enough, if you need more than maybe you just weren't meant to escape that situation.
Not convinced that the change to double recurve skill is a good thing, but my experience with post-Hiram Archeage is limited to a couple hours derping around so i really don't know how it plays out in reality.
Hiram should be implemented, But obsidian should also remain - Choice is great, allow people to make the choice between Hiram/obs/crafted for as long as possible. I do agree with the suggestion to remove the tempering from Hiram in later patches, but thats for another discussion when that patch comes along. The Erenor nerf should also remain until epic Hiram becomes a thing later on.
Changes to Dream ring etc sound good enough on paper, but its just another thing to keep grinding repeatedly. My choice (as someone who's already got it and not affected) would be to leave it as it is or put it to a vote separately.
Would adding crystallisation to obs/dungeon gear be open to discussion? Many of the people who are against Hiram feel that way because they've invested in gear that will become technically obsolete over time. Crystallisation would allow those players to hit their existing gear and get a little more life span out of their hard work before Hiram overruns it. (I realise the Erenor crowd will likely be against this, but they're also getting access to easier than ever synth food since exploding things past celestial will no longer be a thing.)
Invince cooldown should be implemented. One get out of jail free card per player is enough, if you need more than maybe you just weren't meant to escape that situation.
Not convinced that the change to double recurve skill is a good thing, but my experience with post-Hiram Archeage is limited to a couple hours derping around so i really don't know how it plays out in reality.
Hiram should be implemented, But obsidian should also remain - Choice is great, allow people to make the choice between Hiram/obs/crafted for as long as possible. I do agree with the suggestion to remove the tempering from Hiram in later patches, but thats for another discussion when that patch comes along. The Erenor nerf should also remain until epic Hiram becomes a thing later on.
Changes to Dream ring etc sound good enough on paper, but its just another thing to keep grinding repeatedly. My choice (as someone who's already got it and not affected) would be to leave it as it is or put it to a vote separately.
Would adding crystallisation to obs/dungeon gear be open to discussion? Many of the people who are against Hiram feel that way because they've invested in gear that will become technically obsolete over time. Crystallisation would allow those players to hit their existing gear and get a little more life span out of their hard work before Hiram overruns it. (I realise the Erenor crowd will likely be against this, but they're also getting access to easier than ever synth food since exploding things past celestial will no longer be a thing.)
Joey
Active Member
I think the argument that players who would rather complain about there inability to use invuln mechanics rather then practice them is totally bunk. The invuln rule should not be added.
Crystalization on dungeon IMO is unwarranted, the regrade rates are already quite absurd, and the material cost is all at the end (you can regrade GHA stuff to legendary/mythic/eternal) and then tier it up vs having to tier it up to the tier you want and then hit it like ayanad or delphinad since the grade resets on craft.
As for crystalization on obsidian gear, it would probably be necessary to make obsidian unable to be tiered up if it is crystallized, otherwise people could just click a bunch of low tier stuff and then upgrade it through like dungeon gear if they got lucky. This would also follow your argument where you mentioned this change would be helping players so they could get a little more life out of their existing gear, not making new obsidian equipment i.e. they may push it up a grade by regrading it but they won't be tiering it up anymore.
Divine hiram gives much lower defense/raw DPS as it can't be tempered in 4.5, max hp potential is 4-5k less too (unless you take the max hp roll in which case you're forfeiting a damage reduction or resilience). Synth effects can probably bridge the gap in the weapon department, but if you're only using a divine ayanad weapon currently you can just go farm a divine hiram and then sell your ayanad to fund other things, or just spend your gold + keep your ayanad + be lazy and don't farm. Divine ayanad isn't some absurd level of investment (10-15k?), and FFS it's tradeable LOL.
Sure divine hiram has more resilience and 200 more toughness (melee/archers take backstab/focus on that slot so doesn't matter for them, cloth users could get 600+ toughness in those slots via SWS/CGS so LOL) than comparable obsidian or ayanad, but it doesn't have equip effects or set bonuses.
I think it's hilarious that people are worried about new content you actually have to spend time grinding devaluing people's support pack/new player level gear. If you are someone who isn't at the mid level in terms of gear yet (~epic t6/epic ayanad), hiram is really nothing but an improvement for you that costs little to nothing out of pocket aside from time. If you do have mid level gear, you can start using niche hiram pieces like offhands, flutes, bows, etc. in preparation of the future patches to come, this server has been marketed as a patch progression server for ages so you shouldn't expect to just hit the epic t6 threshold and be set for life. If you have the aforementioned mid level or current equivalent of endgame gear (legendary t7+ or epic+ erenor) this patch really shouldn't even matter to you outside of those niche pieces like stat sticks that I mentioned earlier, you probably still have at least 6 months - 1 year to enjoy the majority of the okayish-great gear you've worked hard for.
Big suprise here: It's very hard to put progression in a game if the new stuff isn't better than the old stuff (not necessarily indicative of 4.5 but rather later patches),
ex: why would I go farm a whole hiram set (outside of niche pieces) when my obsidian set i've had for a year is nearly as good (90-95%) or maybe on par because the devs nerfed the new content. Substantially nerfed content = no content.
If we wanted a stagnant server with no incentive to do anything new maybe more people should have voted yes on the forum thread proposing a new server where it's $40 to make an account and everyone gets the epic t6 gear cap for free and you can't progress past that.
EDIT: anddd its goneeee
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DrRageQuit
Well-Known Member
Fair points. Perhaps a limit could be introduced where only T5+ obs would crystallize though i dont know if this is technically possible with the way things are setup.
you have some good arguments but the problem is most of us already played 4.5 at official, already know what will happen and already saw most of this changes are atrocious and most of us already saw whole servers die in two weeks because of it, sure some of those changes sound nice but in practice they failed hence the why we ended up here in the first place, sure if you played up to 3.0 or something like that and quit then it may have some mystery and something to look forward until you realize what we realized years ago.
I'm not saying we shouldn't add something new but is insane to keep adding changes that we know as a fact that will break the server because they already did, the good thing is archerage tend to agree with us enough that something custom can be added to mitigate the damages(like keeping both trade system in 3.5 instead of completely breaking the game like it did at official).
So let's keep spit balling until we found a middle ground for new content without breaking the server more
Oh, is that what you guys call macros now? Practicing?
Kiting an enemy / running away from a large group is definitely a skill that takes practice, if you guys suspect particular individuals of macroing then report them, there's no need to clutter this thread with this nonsense. Try binding your glider and the active skill to the same keybind, if you have at least somewhat decent ping, it's probably going to go off... really not that hard. Make your mount summon keybind easy, make a practical mount/dismount keybind, make the mount skill keybinds easy to reach. Muscle memory is very real. The amount of people that actually macro these things are a tiny minority, lots of players really just don't care to try that hard or simply can't wrap their brains around doing anything but spamming a few skills in a pvp scenario so they want these nerfs to happen.
Macroing things such as mounts and invuln gliders can actually be quite disadvantageous: if your glider or mount gets cancelled your macro is still going to loop through the rest of the actions you've programmed it to do, which wastes even more time than doing it legitimately and will probably result in your death.
Sparkle,
Most armor issues could be fixed if you guys take into account not to modify the skill trees in this patch or find a way to mix the best of both systems because 4.5 skill tree changes were a mess(that even today official is try to fix it), destroyed several builds, made healing classes almost useless, tanks are basically removed from the game, DPS classes went insane and basically made GS matter more than ever outside have some uber geared doombringer that can survive and have good enough ping to hide and jump to be able to heal something worth a damn.
I think you guys can go a different route here, so instead of going official way of making less and less classes viable to be sure whales can one shot everything while the target food players can't even get decent heals you could guys keep the current skill tree system and customize ancestrals with some of the new(non retarded) skills effects to give the player base more variation of classes/gear and do some balance over time in case a new OP meta emerges.
The thing Trino never got was
**** more and bigger sandbox == better
**** more instance and smaller sandbox == worse.
Most armor issues could be fixed if you guys take into account not to modify the skill trees in this patch or find a way to mix the best of both systems because 4.5 skill tree changes were a mess(that even today official is try to fix it), destroyed several builds, made healing classes almost useless, tanks are basically removed from the game, DPS classes went insane and basically made GS matter more than ever outside have some uber geared doombringer that can survive and have good enough ping to hide and jump to be able to heal something worth a damn.
I think you guys can go a different route here, so instead of going official way of making less and less classes viable to be sure whales can one shot everything while the target food players can't even get decent heals you could guys keep the current skill tree system and customize ancestrals with some of the new(non retarded) skills effects to give the player base more variation of classes/gear and do some balance over time in case a new OP meta emerges.
The thing Trino never got was
**** more and bigger sandbox == better
**** more instance and smaller sandbox == worse.
Plenty of video proof for all accusations exists and has been submitted but have been shot down by the admins with the lovely statement of "it is not excessive macroing". I mean hell, Breezelong was "macroing" an overnight bot in F2 of the Library and he didn't even get banned so since the admins keep moving goalposts on the topic (and the topic of multiboxing and account sharing, but that's a whole other story), that's enough to warrant everyone macroing in any capacity without being banned. Not to mention you even described the action of putting two actions on one key press...which last I checked was the definition of macroing and not muscle memory, which logically would be underneath the whole "bannable" umbrella thing going on, but again...admins moved goalposts on the rule so it's not like you guys doing it will get banned for it. And we're not cluttering the topic, we're just pointing out the fact that you want the invincibility cooldown removed so you can keep being brain-dead with the invincible+mobility macros as our reason for saying "no, keep the invincibility cooldown".
Yeah, that example doesn't really fall under macroing but rather scripting or even botting as you mentioned. I wouldn't personally use script farming as precedent for glider or mount macroing but hey I'm not an administrator.
Didn't say anything regarding one key press, rather shared keybinds, you press the same key (or combination) twice very quickly.
I don't personally macro any mounts or gliders, I actually tested glider macroing outside of a PVP scenario over a year ago and found it to be very clunky and inefficient. I don't always get my instant ravenspine invun, ezi skill, chaining mount dashes, or sloth backdrop off, sometimes I look like an idiot as I die - I'm not the greatest at kiting but I've practiced these things a lot and they usually work out. I'm sure my relatively low ping really helps with this, but even if someone were to macro the tools I mentioned, I don't think it would really make a difference. I am not of the opinion that someone choosing to macro devalues my abilities in this context. There's a lot more that goes in to escaping than just furiously pressing some keys or macroing, especially from a big group of people. You can chain invulns and movement all you like, but if you run into the lake in mistmerrow or into another group of reds, it was all for nothing.
One would think that by practicing something you'd get better at it, however some players consider this theory to be faulty. I'm sad to see a change that proposes something which took a while to master vanish and enable potential for kiting in outnumbered scenarios go away.
If a change has to be made, I suppose I would be alright with a reduction in the 15 second invincibility cooldown -- perhaps something along the line of 3-5 seconds after the invincibility duration: such that there would be a sufficient window to CC an opponent (especially in a patch like 4.5) but also allow for some degree of counterplay by the fleeing party.
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trapwhre02
Well-Known Member
Just live with the fact that macro'ing is allowed no matter how excessive you consider it, unless it is used to automize gameplay so you can go afk.
I stopped caring about it. And quite honestly, a macro won't be advantageous unless you use it to spam a single key. Any other form of macro (a bot-like macro excluded) e.g. spawning mount, getting on and invinc-dashing is better done manually.
Invinc'ing of any sort encourages aggressive gameplay. If you as archer have blown through teleports (or any class that has to keep their distance and focus on staying alive, really), there is no point in staying in a fight because you know once someone is going for you, you'll die. Having a backup ability to bridge the cooldowns from your teleports keeps the fight alive and is quite a fun way to play.
I wouldn't want to see this invinc-change either, and if the devs decide that this would be a good change and look forward to enforcing it, I'd much rather see a change that makes it so serp sleeves & auramancy immunity procs cannot be activated in combination with any other manual invincibility skill.
Because those procs require 0 talent from the player, unlike other forms of immunity.
And if you say abusing immunity of gliders & mounts doesn't involve any skill from the accused player then think about this:
You need to have keybinds for all your gliders and mounts (which can be challenging for many people already), you need to have their skill order memorized (they differ - not every mount or glider has their invincibility on key x,y,z).
Even those who macro the gliders and their abilities, still have to predict fights and enemy player behaviour, equip the glider they think they'll need in a second.
Predicting enemy behaviour is a major part of "skill" to me and many others. Another thing is that you need to memorize what glider you have equipped, because if you have your sloth equipped already, thinking you haven't, when you use that bind to swap to it without the intent to use it, you'll actually end up using it and get locked in an animation. Using mounts to invinc simply means your enemy has given you too much time. You cannot blame the player for it.
What you can blame is the game, because very often it gives you little time to react to a player spawning a mount and dashing. By the time they spawned their mount on your screen, they've already dashed on theirs. But nonetheless there is counter-play to it. Most players will teleport first to gain distance, then spawn a mount and dash away. The moment they teleport should be considered a massive sign towards them spawning a mount. You can open your super balanced red-dragon glider when you see them teleport out of the fight, wait 1-2s for them to use their invinc and have it run out, then divebomb them.
Serp sleeves and auramancy immunity on the other hand, are a terrible passive because they don't require you to do anything I've mentioned above. They don't require you to prepare. Because their duration lasts long enough that you can adjust to whatever you failed to predict and give you a second life when you didn't deserve it. E.g. Healers using serp sleeves proc to freely cast CC's and ezi glider away with no way of counter-play.
I stopped caring about it. And quite honestly, a macro won't be advantageous unless you use it to spam a single key. Any other form of macro (a bot-like macro excluded) e.g. spawning mount, getting on and invinc-dashing is better done manually.
i totally agree for the invinc cooldown, if you cant escape for 15sec with normal skills or mounts/gliders without invinc or immune then just die or kill whoever chasing you
Invinc'ing of any sort encourages aggressive gameplay. If you as archer have blown through teleports (or any class that has to keep their distance and focus on staying alive, really), there is no point in staying in a fight because you know once someone is going for you, you'll die. Having a backup ability to bridge the cooldowns from your teleports keeps the fight alive and is quite a fun way to play.
I wouldn't want to see this invinc-change either, and if the devs decide that this would be a good change and look forward to enforcing it, I'd much rather see a change that makes it so serp sleeves & auramancy immunity procs cannot be activated in combination with any other manual invincibility skill.
Because those procs require 0 talent from the player, unlike other forms of immunity.
And if you say abusing immunity of gliders & mounts doesn't involve any skill from the accused player then think about this:
You need to have keybinds for all your gliders and mounts (which can be challenging for many people already), you need to have their skill order memorized (they differ - not every mount or glider has their invincibility on key x,y,z).
Even those who macro the gliders and their abilities, still have to predict fights and enemy player behaviour, equip the glider they think they'll need in a second.
Predicting enemy behaviour is a major part of "skill" to me and many others. Another thing is that you need to memorize what glider you have equipped, because if you have your sloth equipped already, thinking you haven't, when you use that bind to swap to it without the intent to use it, you'll actually end up using it and get locked in an animation. Using mounts to invinc simply means your enemy has given you too much time. You cannot blame the player for it.
What you can blame is the game, because very often it gives you little time to react to a player spawning a mount and dashing. By the time they spawned their mount on your screen, they've already dashed on theirs. But nonetheless there is counter-play to it. Most players will teleport first to gain distance, then spawn a mount and dash away. The moment they teleport should be considered a massive sign towards them spawning a mount. You can open your super balanced red-dragon glider when you see them teleport out of the fight, wait 1-2s for them to use their invinc and have it run out, then divebomb them.
Serp sleeves and auramancy immunity on the other hand, are a terrible passive because they don't require you to do anything I've mentioned above. They don't require you to prepare. Because their duration lasts long enough that you can adjust to whatever you failed to predict and give you a second life when you didn't deserve it. E.g. Healers using serp sleeves proc to freely cast CC's and ezi glider away with no way of counter-play.
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with this as a one-off event. The problem is when you get caught out, drop your skills, and immune glider away... then do the exact same thing 5 seconds later with a different immune glider, again and again. Serp sleeves and immune procs from Auramancy are paid for in their equipment slot and skill point. You have to make that part of your build to use them. Every build has an applicable wrist item that benefits them. What makes this event poorly balanced is the ability to drop all their skills and get away, over and over again, by using multiple different invuln mechanics. Swapping a glider isn't a matter of skill, it's a matter of being able to ignore positioning and not get punished for it. I fail to see any argument that disproves that.
Immune glider/mount =/= skill
It's pretty clear it requires skill otherwise the entire server would be doing it, and majority of the people on this server only use ravenspine as it is the most braindead immune glider to use, using immune gliders / mounts have a huge risk behind them and takes a while to learn if you have enough time to be able to get the immune off if not you get caught in an animation and most likely will die without being able to fight back.
Furthermore, chain immunes are the only way to fight the most braindead glider - divebomb and rocket wings. A glider that is guaranteed to trip someone just by being in a 40m range is stupid and the only way to stop that is through an immune, adding this immune cooldown means that two people can just divebomb a player and force them into a constant cc lock, no thank you to that one.
trapwhre02
Well-Known Member
Sorry, what ? A one-off event ? Are you serious. EVERY cloth user wears those sleeves and they proc in every damn fight, their cooldown is 45s which even makes it possible to have it proc twice during longer fights. You as tank have no idea how fucking annoying these things are. Play dps for a while and tell me again they are OK.
Exactly, you have 5 seconds to burst down your target or lock them in CC. Is that not enough for you ? Not to mention that invincibility of gliders and mounts can be interrupted before successful triggering. Attack speed debuffs are your best friends.
You act like cloth users have to sarcrifice anything when chosing to wear serp sleeves. There literally isn't any other option that is remotely useful other than those.
Auramancy's RNG immunity is bullshit because you cannot tell when it happens and it has zero counter-play.
People using immunity from auramancy usually go very deep into it for the teleport reset. So they have to spend this point anyways.
Sorry you must've read everything I said with fingers in your ears saying "lalalala don't hear any of that".
I gave plenty of reasons why it takes skill to some degree and how it can be countered. You have your fair share of time between each invulnerabilty to CC and if you know someone is notoriously using it, ignore them or shotcall that target for your raid to prioritize them.
If you remove glider & mount immunity, you're just forcing players to play very defensively to the point in which the fights lack excitement.
Some sympathy I share with you on this topic. It's frustrating I get it. But simply asking for this dumb change to be enforced is a nice way to fuck with a lot of loyal dedicated players and there are better ways, ways that both sides can be satisfied with if you just take your time to think of them.
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