ArcheRage 3.5 Discussion

Discussion in 'Game Debates' started by Sparkle, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. Rosess

    Rosess New Member


    -No to crafting/regrade changes
    -No trade run changes
    -Yes to skill changes.
  2. GottFaust

    GottFaust New Member

    Why don't you want cheaper crafting (factoring statistical averages for getting the upgrade-capable pieces) and better regrade chances?
  3. Spassky

    Spassky New Member

    Do not bring the new system where you can kill mobs to make peace periods... more peace periods is bad for the game and causes people to stop doing danger trade runs.
  4. Popagaydice

    Popagaydice New Member

    i am highly against the new trade system

    also please add the upgrade ticket for the b200 in the cash shop allowing you to upgrade from timber coupe to b200 just like it was in korea
  5. Velorra

    Velorra Active Member

    I did the math for Cuirasses (crafting for wisps) and if you got the statistical 1:4 Illustrious going Magnificent upgradeable, and break down the failures, then gather up 4 Magnificents and craft and get the expected statistic of 1:4 Magnificents going Epherium while breaking down the failures (and assuming the Epherium fails), you're looking at 20 Illustrious crafts, 4 Magnificent crafts, and 1 Epherium craft to get the wisps to reforge to Epherium upgradeable. Including the cost to upgrade said upgradeable to Delphinad, material differences between 3.0 and 3.5 were:

    275 Moonlight Crystals vs 381 Moonlight crystals (difference of 106, pay 530g less in 3.0)
    3948 Iron Ingots vs 1944 Iron Ingots (difference of -2004, 701g more in 3.0)
    231 Copper and Silver Ingots vs 243 Copper and Silver Ingots (difference of 12 of each, 9g less in 3.0)
    1019 Charcoal vs 937 Charcoal (difference of -82, 91g more in 3.0)

    So doing the money maths of it all while stupidly assuming prices will stay the same from 3.0 to 3.5, you'd spend 253g more NOW than in 3.5 to buy the materials necessary to craft 1 Delphinad using the wisp system vs the "guaranteed" route of 3.5. This isn't taking into account the regrade costs required to upgrade. If the values of regrading in 3.5 that are listed on the interwebs are even so much as cut in half and rounded down, your best case scenario in regrading means you end up paying 176g in regrade costs not including the 180g that it would cost for you to buy the scrolls off the AH. If you did, that's 253g more gold spent in materials in 3.0, but 356g spent in 3.5 to make it to Delphinad, making it 103g cheaper to make a Delphinad in 3.0 than in 3.5.

    TLDR: Crafting Delphinad in 3.5 isn't cheaper at all. If you bought all materials off the AH required to make Delphinads here using the Wisp system and bought materials in 3.5 using the current market costs for said materials (which anyone who played retail 3.5 can guarantee they won't), it would cost you more gold even with the "guaranteed" method of making a Delphinad in 3.5 even after cutting regrade costs in half. I'll post the math if you want in a future post, but it's a wall of text and I didn't want to kill any illiterates here just yet.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  6. Meliodas

    Meliodas New Member

    Keep the crafting as it is please! RNG unsealing and wisps. RNG unsealing is half the fun of crafting. Getting lucky and getting to take it up a tier.
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  7. Meliodas

    Meliodas New Member

    I don't think you understand. The gear gap doesn't go away and prices may only slightly get cheaper. People that whale will just be able to blow up the same pieces over and over again freely until they get leg/epic buff of that set instead of the rng we have now.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  8. GottFaust

    GottFaust New Member

    The story changes when attempting to make Ayanad pieces, which is what I was referring to.

    I suppose I'm slightly biased since my RNG is, and has always been, complete garbage. From where I stand: any removal of RNG benefits myself, and those like me, heavily. Moving to a progression-centric system from the current luck-centric system also does lessen the gear gap a bit. It allows those who are more effort based rather than swipe based to progress their gear up over time rather than deal with terrible gear while they save up to buy the big pieces.

    It's possible in 3.5 to start with your epherium set, upgrade that same set to delphinad when you get the materials, upgrade that delphinad set to ayanad, and eventually take that ayanad set to erenor entirely through effort all while actually using the gear in question. This isn't possible with the current system which is full of progression dead ends outside of obsidian gear. I'd argue that it's actually much cheaper for the average player to hit higher gearscore faster in 3.5 than it is now simply because of this progressive crafting system. Granted: it does make it slightly easier for the whales to whale as well, but you have to take the bad with the good.

    In short: I'll take a guaranteed gear progression system over a dead-end-heavy RNG system any day even if it does benefit the whales as well.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  9. Velorra

    Velorra Active Member

    The story only really changes if you're trying to make a specific type of Ayanad using the sealed RNG system. Getting to Ayanad itself is still cheaper in 3.0 than 3.5. Taking into consideration the statistical expectation of 1:7 Delphinad crafts going upgradeable, the materials required to make an Ayanad in 3.5 is the material equivalent of ELEVEN Delphinad craft attempts plus the materials for 1 Ayanad craft in 3.0. So yeah, if you're hoping for one Ayanad type in particular, 3.5 is "cheaper" in the sense that you have to craft significantly less, but again: this is all speculating that you got the worst case scenario statistically, and also assuming material costs will stay the same.

    But they won't. As I said in a previous post, if the crafting changes, the Charcoal has to at LEAST stay the same. And if we get the cargo system, the crafting has to stay the same (possibly even getting the no-RNG system of 3.5 while keeping 3.0's crafting costs). Archeum requirements more than double, and archeum trees only increase yield by 30%. That's going to cause an increase in archeum costs by at least that much. But the Charcoal...oh ho ho the Charcoal Stabilizers. If we get the 3.5 crafting requirements and the Charcoal supply is hindered in ANY way, there is literally no way crafting in 3.5 will be cheaper. Absolutely no way, because every polish/oil/pigment requires the previous tier's polish/oil/pigment.

    A Delphinad chestpiece requires five sunridge ingots/cloudspun fabric/wind spirit leather in 3.0. That's 175 charcoal. In 3.5, tier 4's will cost 3 Dragon Essence Stabilizers each PLUS a tier 3, which requires a tier 2, which requires a tier 1. So in 3.5, a tier 4 will cost 17 Charcoal stabilizers each (17x5=85), and 3.5 bumps a Delphinad's need for sunridge/cloudspun/wind spirit from 5 to EIGHTEEN. That means the Charcoal requirement there goes from 175 to 769. If the supply dwindles in any way like it did in 3.5, costs will increase. So right NOW on the low-end of the spectrum, you go from paying 175g to 769g. If the price of Charcoal even so much as doubles (it octupled on retail 3.5), that means you'd be paying a little over 1350 gold MORE to make a Delphinad (just ONE Delphinad) in 3.5 than in 3.0, just at this single step.

    If prices stay the same across the board, statistically speaking you'd still be paying more for an Ayanad craft in 3.0 than in 3.5. If prices increase like they're expected to, it will cost upwards of 6-8x more for the materials to craft a "guaranteed" piece of gear in 3.5. This ensures new players would be incapable of gearing up to compete with the richer, more established players unless the admins give them one hell of a catch-up mechanic. And THIS is why people don't want Erenor. Just doing the math it takes to make an Erenor, the people who are just scraping by won't be able to catch up to the raw power having thousands of gold can buy in materials.

    The best part is, you can't even say this fearmongering is speculation. Look at Live! They gave us Hiram because their Cargo system borked crafting. They gave us Hiram because crafting gear wasn't worth it for people who couldn't put that much effort into making thousands of gold that they stripped away thanks to the Cargo system's introduction. We have a live specimen to compare notes with, and anyone stupid enough to WANT to repeat history should gtfo. This server is a year old. The economy is not ready to step up to Erenor yet, the economy is DEFINITELY not ready to step up to the crafting changes and Cargo system that 3.5 brings. It is absolutely not ready, it's still in its infancy. But sadly, we're running on mild guess work because we still have no idea what admins plan on actually doing, but if it's remotely close to what comes with 3.5, the server is just as doomed as Live.
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  10. GottFaust

    GottFaust New Member

    I was referring to specific ayanad pieces, yes.
    Also, if you read the thread: it's already been confirmed that the cargo system will not be making it in, or if it does there will be significant changes.
    You can't treat this server like it's Trino's live version.
    First: it's not actually based on Trino's altered version.
    Second: the reason crafting was(is) so bad in 3.5+ on live was PURELY due to the trade and charcoal requirement changes which have been confirmed to not be going in unaltered, if at all.

    The crafting system itself is actually a vast improvement in isolation. It strikes me that XL games had different teams working on the different aspects independently. The result is a trade system with good intentions yet bad execution combined with a crafting system based on the "current" supplies/demands of charcoal and other materials. Independently one is "okay", and the other is actually quite good. Together: they're an abomination.

    This is one very specific, and very valid, example of why you don't silo your teams in any form of software development.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  11. dzhafarmakhmudov

    dzhafarmakhmudov New Member

    approximate date of installation of the update?
  12. Velorra

    Velorra Active Member

    Their developmental teams weren't working to make Legacy work, they were working to make Fresh Starts work. A few interviews I read awhile back had XL reps saying that post-3.0, their patches saw larger grand-scale changes because they wanted to make a newer, fresher change to the game itself for Fresh Start players, so they made gigantic blanket changes that ultimately led to catastrophic results on Legacy servers, and that Legacy servers were deemed an official failure in-house as of 4.0 onward.

    That being said, I would take what the admins say about what changes will be going into our version of 3.5 with a pinch of salt, because we don't actually know what they can and can't do. Some of the things requested by players (such as changing where housing zones are located) have been deemed as not possible to be modified by the staff, and the cargo system and all its components, from the underlying infrastructure to turn in packs and whatnot, seem to be along the same vein if you look at it from a game engine standpoint. So at this point, this thread is a gigantic clusterfuck of speculation because we have no idea what is within the powers of the staff.
  13. Sjinderson

    Sjinderson Active Member Staff Member

    Will be announced closer to the updates launch
  14. Updown

    Updown Member

    Even as I am working towards specific Ayanad full set, and 4/7 on it, I don't want the crafting system to change. Here at these rates you hardly lose money, even if you fail to craft the appropriate ones via the wisp part. This system allows much cheaper crafts, and reasonable ones. You can make a living of it, or you can make your own gear, it just takes time and some clever investment.

    The problem is, what I see with the removal of RNG in crafting, and the removal of RNG in Erenor grading, that the whole system became even worse than it was before SPENT GOLD WISE. You either spent a lot of gold on rng, or spent a ton of gold with no rng. You can't really implement that big of a change, because it just helps the rich to stockpile now, and again will not help on the whole situation. Like I can just make a full ayanad set now, and just change it when 3.5 hits, and then I crafted for 1/5 the price than anyone who wants a set after 3.5.

    And one specific part, at least on the plate crafts: we as a community work together. I know many people whom I contacted with, and made some good trades, because he needed a different set. And it sounds a bit silly, but it makes this whole game more MMOish. You don't have to work on your own, there are other people crafting too. If you are a bit lucky, you can make one ayanad (way cheaper than in 3.5) with this system, and just trade it for the one you need if someone else got it. It takes time (but the other method takes time too), but I personally consider it a way better system.

    So just to sum up my view on this: the removal of rng only makes the system better, if it doesn't raise the non-rng part to be on the same level (gold wise) as the previous system.
  15. Hemox

    Hemox New Member

    been almost a month, will there be any update from staff on this to let us know what is in or not in yet?
  16. Hemox

    Hemox New Member

    also make endless arrows ping based again pls!
  17. dzhafarmakhmudov

    dzhafarmakhmudov New Member

    I suggest you change the craft so that it will be beneficial to those who are engaged in this craft and those who want to get what he needs.

    This can be done very easily.
    Do not change the old craft, leave it as it is in 3.0.
    But add Transmuter to the game so you can seal and pick up what you need, but that when unpacking it was impossible to get a pass thing.
    Thus, the craft will not die for crafters, and everyone will get what they want.
    Also leave resources for obsidian, but reduce their quantity for the required grade.

    What about trading, just add trading stations, but leave the recovery percentage on regular packs as in 3.0.

    In another case, you can lose players, as a new craft in 3.5 - is not beneficial to anyone.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  18. Xeomoon

    Xeomoon New Member

    Ascentral skills are really fun.

    Trade changes arent fun

    Erenor is meh

    No RNG crafting is okay but its gonna break an economy kinda. Do what ya want.

    PLEASE BUFF PLATE (like really... make it viable).
    *plate healer here*
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018 at 8:18 AM

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