+1 i made a post about this, admins argued that they needed items to replace archeum and points so the boxes have more selection. So i did their job for them like im getting paid off this server or something, and got creative gave them a list of items they could potentially replace the the archeum and points with. All they did is take some of the items i had given them add it to their current box list but didnt take out any of the archeum or points. They seem to be acting like trion on this point. They dont realize they are killing the point in auroria because they cant get creative. The economy is in the shitts, pop is low but they arnt making changes
The economy and trade pack runs
- Thread starter Whisper
- Start date
havockitty
Active Member
Dont be so harsh on admins they do a lot but archeum and points are sensitive topic cuz ppl that buy credits and/or open boxes want good items including that archeum and points. It would be natural case that if u take them out they 1st will skyrocket in price and that would be normal case if they only be produced by players and ofc there probably be some tweaks on how many archeum is produced cuz trees are awful they give u almost nothing if u look on archeum demand.
It would be game changing for a lot of ppl but that also would bring actual content for ppl that for sure.
Question is if admins would even consider such change we would need some real dialoge betwenn playerbase and admins and for now i dont see such.
It would be game changing for a lot of ppl but that also would bring actual content for ppl that for sure.
Question is if admins would even consider such change we would need some real dialoge betwenn playerbase and admins and for now i dont see such.
Well before letting this die I want to say this last thing since there is strong argument for these changes, but little argument against it.
This is a high rates server, we have high labor regen, we have fast grow times.
A person without much investment can start producing the material do do 60 pack runs in the time it takes to run 27.
This is because those rates are higher, but pack running isn't.
With serious investment I could produce material to run 600 pack runs in the time it takes to run 27, and I still can only do 27. It's hard capped.
Not by labor. Or skill.
What to do with those extra materials? Auction house? What if everyone else is doing that too?
That's my point.
This is a HIGH rates server, with normal rates trade runs.
We can produce more than is allowed to ever be spent.
There is a hard cap on time, that's 5% per hour.
There is a hard cap on distance/time, that will always remain the same.
There are few viable trade routes out of the 300 choices.
You'd be mad to spend your labor running Marianople Duck Down anywhere inland either to Solz/2c or Cinder.
And you'd be mad to use that as a pack for sea runs when there are other better options.
That's why I'm trying to propose multiple changes.
Increase the regen x2 x4 or x6 so more packs can be run per hour before their value crashes. I'd say even x2 isn't okay.
Multiple the way packs are handled to consume more material out of the economy by changing the labor cost to craft them, the material cost to make them, and the gold reward for turning them in x2 x3 x4.
We need a vent for all these materials that can be produced because of the high rates. That's what commerce is for.
Commerce should be limited by labor not time.
Make a pack run take 3510 labor for 405 gold instead of 1170 labor for 135 gold and suddenly it is.
Make a fert run from Gwen to 2c take 3510 labor instead of 1170 labor, 75 produce, grain, 60 meat, 150 flowers, instead of 25, 20, 50, and reward 432g instead of 144g.
Suddenly it is limited by labor, not time. It also consumes more materials out of the economy with higher regen rates to keep up with the increased production we already have.
And finally we're coming back to the same talking point which only Aviendha acknowledge but the rest ignored.
Most of the trade routes are bad. They cost the same labor, but are no means viable material/time sinks.
My suggestion remains the same in the first post, along with Aviendha's comment.
Create a reason for people to spend their 5000 labor on Marianople Duck Down, because for the current rates, there certainly isn't one. This goes for half if not over three quarters of all the existing available packs.
This thread has gone quiet and while when I mention it to others, and have their silent support in-game or on discord, they refuse to create a forum account to comment/support this. I can't speak for them, they strongly believe the devs won't change anything regardless of what's said so why bother.
I think they're wrong, and that's why I made this effort. There isn't been any argument against it, just simple ignoring the facts, or evading the questions.
I think this makes sense from a rational and logical standpoint.
This is a high rates server, we have high labor regen, we have fast grow times.
A person without much investment can start producing the material do do 60 pack runs in the time it takes to run 27.
This is because those rates are higher, but pack running isn't.
With serious investment I could produce material to run 600 pack runs in the time it takes to run 27, and I still can only do 27. It's hard capped.
Not by labor. Or skill.
What to do with those extra materials? Auction house? What if everyone else is doing that too?
That's my point.
This is a HIGH rates server, with normal rates trade runs.
We can produce more than is allowed to ever be spent.
There is a hard cap on time, that's 5% per hour.
There is a hard cap on distance/time, that will always remain the same.
There are few viable trade routes out of the 300 choices.
You'd be mad to spend your labor running Marianople Duck Down anywhere inland either to Solz/2c or Cinder.
And you'd be mad to use that as a pack for sea runs when there are other better options.
That's why I'm trying to propose multiple changes.
Increase the regen x2 x4 or x6 so more packs can be run per hour before their value crashes. I'd say even x2 isn't okay.
Multiple the way packs are handled to consume more material out of the economy by changing the labor cost to craft them, the material cost to make them, and the gold reward for turning them in x2 x3 x4.
We need a vent for all these materials that can be produced because of the high rates. That's what commerce is for.
Commerce should be limited by labor not time.
Make a pack run take 3510 labor for 405 gold instead of 1170 labor for 135 gold and suddenly it is.
Make a fert run from Gwen to 2c take 3510 labor instead of 1170 labor, 75 produce, grain, 60 meat, 150 flowers, instead of 25, 20, 50, and reward 432g instead of 144g.
Suddenly it is limited by labor, not time. It also consumes more materials out of the economy with higher regen rates to keep up with the increased production we already have.
And finally we're coming back to the same talking point which only Aviendha acknowledge but the rest ignored.
Most of the trade routes are bad. They cost the same labor, but are no means viable material/time sinks.
My suggestion remains the same in the first post, along with Aviendha's comment.
Create a reason for people to spend their 5000 labor on Marianople Duck Down, because for the current rates, there certainly isn't one. This goes for half if not over three quarters of all the existing available packs.
This thread has gone quiet and while when I mention it to others, and have their silent support in-game or on discord, they refuse to create a forum account to comment/support this. I can't speak for them, they strongly believe the devs won't change anything regardless of what's said so why bother.
I think they're wrong, and that's why I made this effort. There isn't been any argument against it, just simple ignoring the facts, or evading the questions.
I think this makes sense from a rational and logical standpoint.
I totally agree
Drunkenhero
Active Member
Maybe offering flat gold on overseas runs will help. Something like 150% of the charcoal rate, turned in at a gold trader. To make charcoal values go up but also allow people to generate more gold with the effort of a full cross continent run.
Divora
New Member
YES PLEASE!!!
One alternative could be adding compressed pack versions that took more mats, for example:
Karka Quilts: 60 Dried Flowers, 40 Duck Down --> Solz 20g
Karka Quilts 2x: 180 Dried Flowers, 120 Duck Down --> Solz 40g
Karka Quilts 3x: 300 Dried Flowers, 200 Duck Down --> Solz 60g
Increasing the material costs from 1x to 3x then 5x would balance the higher price. Even 1x ->4x->6x would be fair imo to compensate for higher reward
To make it really interesting, when someone negotiated a higher price it could recover rates for everyone depending on time:
. 1st negotiation/hr = +10% price
. 2nd negotiation/hr = +5% price
. 3rd or higher negotiation/hr = +1% price
It would also give much more weight to having higher proficiency, as it could help everyone.
Lastly, each time someone successfully negotiated price they could get a free cargo certificate, up to limit of 5 per day or so.
Karka Quilts: 60 Dried Flowers, 40 Duck Down --> Solz 20g
Karka Quilts 2x: 180 Dried Flowers, 120 Duck Down --> Solz 40g
Karka Quilts 3x: 300 Dried Flowers, 200 Duck Down --> Solz 60g
Increasing the material costs from 1x to 3x then 5x would balance the higher price. Even 1x ->4x->6x would be fair imo to compensate for higher reward
To make it really interesting, when someone negotiated a higher price it could recover rates for everyone depending on time:
. 1st negotiation/hr = +10% price
. 2nd negotiation/hr = +5% price
. 3rd or higher negotiation/hr = +1% price
It would also give much more weight to having higher proficiency, as it could help everyone.
Lastly, each time someone successfully negotiated price they could get a free cargo certificate, up to limit of 5 per day or so.
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sociopathix
Active Member
They should replace the points with shards, like how the braziers work. Instead of getting a point on the rng box, you get the same amount of shards a brazier would give. This simple change would really help the regrade scroll market because right now, you can't afford to waste your Lord coins on logs. You would make more from selling the Lord coins instead on most days.
Hi , theres no reason to remove archeum or sun moonpoints, from the boxes , if they do that then the prices on those items wil become to expensive and onli those with land on Auroria will benefit .We alredi have gold increase when regrading and we ned alot of archeum for crafting , i hope that change will never hapend it is bad it is very bad ,it s not like you ned 10 archeum and 2 regrade to make a divine delphinad .
Beerson
Member
Maybe you are too new to this server, but I remember when we did braziers and Trees, the prices for scrolls were managable, and you would still have ancestral purses dropping them which would keep the price on reasonable levels (simlpe logic, point's go up, purses that are already among best ways to make gold become even more profittable, more ppl do them - even 2k gear newguy can farm purses very effectivelly with few advices from experienced player) auroria farming was one of the best activities in this game, one of very few where you would have almost guarranteed lowscale pvp, and even with low gear one could sneak the logs away (unless they were bad)
however as auroria resources are not affected by this servers multiplier (afaik, havent' done em since they died half a year ago), the respawn rate should be boosted a little, which would make points naturaly cheaper
If you want to make more gold per run trying not staying in safe zones. We finally got fishing a buff and now you want them to change the values on packs. That means they would have to buff everything else. It’s fine the way it is now. You guys are being ridiculous. This change would give x2 the amount of a fully loaded fish boat and they are out in war zones how is this fair? Stop being care bears and take some risks.
Read two pages but still can't make any sense of them, most if not all of it reads as if you just want to stick to "i usually do this one" comfort zone.
You can look at any specialty buyer and realize that 98% of his routes are at 130%, but you're saying stuff is always crashed. There are trade routes that are worth some 19g for a 3 minute merchant schooner run. So 23 * 18g ( accounting for % loss as you deliver this many packs) and thats still over 410 gold, in 3 minutes, maybe 5 if you consider boat load time. Take 20 for the shadow merch, and you still pocketed 390 gold in a short amount of time. That route is often at 130%.
You can look at any specialty buyer and realize that 98% of his routes are at 130%, but you're saying stuff is always crashed. There are trade routes that are worth some 19g for a 3 minute merchant schooner run. So 23 * 18g ( accounting for % loss as you deliver this many packs) and thats still over 410 gold, in 3 minutes, maybe 5 if you consider boat load time. Take 20 for the shadow merch, and you still pocketed 390 gold in a short amount of time. That route is often at 130%.
No, there aren't. Maybe if this was AAU, where all you seem to do is jump on a boat with cpt protection and cargo on your back. You have both old and new systems here, bout time you explore and use em properly.
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What's funny about this is that's currently the same rate we currently have, I just condensed it x3 to lessen the time it takes to spend labor so instead of 5hrs doing pack runs you convert materials in an hour and a half.
108g cost to make the packs
432g turn in at 130% if market isn't crashed otherwise much less
320 raw gold (or less as market crashes) for 3510 labor doing gwen > 2c
If you're going to compare fishing to trade pack runs you need to consider the following:
Fishing = time + war zone + low labor cost = profit
Trade Packs = less time + materials + high labor cost = profit
We're limited to so much labor per day, it's not like this is an infinite gold scheme, it just helps remove materials out of the economy so things like ground grain actually have value.
In fact, if ground grain sold for 5s each instead of 2s each this trade run would be worth even less.
Increasing the rates commerce removes materials out of the economy also increases the value of husbandry, farming, logging, gathering, and mining.
It's not just about Gwen > 2c it's about all trade runs. Adding value to duck down, ground spice, or even Airain rock land.
If Airain Vegetable Seasoning was adjusted, and multipled, then Airain Rock property would have more value to pack runners. Right now it's less value than White Arden, and a longer trip.
If shorter pack runs cost less labor, and longer ones cost more, then there would be value in all pack runs, not just 10/300. Perhaps Marianople Fert could cost 100 labor per pack to craft for a 5minute trip to 2c, while Ahrimar Fert costs 400 labor per pack to craft for a 20minute trip to 2c. What that accomplishes is it means you have a choice, 4 quick marianople fert runs, or 1 long ahrimar fert one, for roughly a similar profit. Currently they both cost the exact same labor and there is no reason to ever touch Marianople Fert.
@Vexaro If 1 person does Sanddeep Fert > Cinderstone boat run, it's crashed for 4hrs, or longer. That's why you see the rates at 130% either they're available for a run or they're crashed, I often try to run it at 126% simply to beat the others waiting for it to reach 130% to crash it. If you take the time to calculate profits from pack runs, they're all over the place. You have Gwen > 2c at 7s/labor. Airrain Rock > 2c at 6s/labor EVEN THOUGH IT'S A LONGER TRIP. Halcy at 6.5s/labor.
But throwing out those random numbers mean little I have not written down a spreadsheet and did all the maths involved, but these are the base ideas to improving pack runs. On live the old pack system was removed so it never got improved. It's broken here, and suffering deeply from economy inflation. Having a good pack system overhaul could be what makes ArcheRage really stand out against Live.
It's not about making the peace zone packs best priced, it's about adjusting all the runs, in fact in my opening post I mention how wartime runs should be worth more.
I'd like to see alot of variety of choice in pack runs, instead of being Halcy > 2c, Sand > Cinder, the big ones, have fun running Gwen to Airrain Rock, then Airrain Rock to Halcy, then Halcy to Ahrimar, then Ahrimar to Sanddeep. Instead of always A > B with B usually being Solz/2c/Cinder it's more like A > B followed by B > C then C > D and D > possibly B again. To make pack runs FUN like in other games.
It's about the whole picture that's being conveyed in regards to pack runs, not just a little detail here or a random guess there, or which profession should make the most money. If commerce was in a better place, it'd boost all harvesting professions. If custom packs were created, even fishing. Imagine if you could make Solzreed Pike packs that were 100 pike / 100 paper, where you could bring fish to Airrain Rock as a trade run. Wouldn't that be fun?
Its just not. This is what your entire premise relies upon, and its all bad information. What do you even mean when you say crashed? a crashed market is like cinderstone apples, that because everyone was running it for the loyalty, tanked to 50%. Thats a crashed route, so, move to another one.
I was just in sanddeep yesterday with a new player that wanted to make some gold. They started working on a merchant, finished it, and did a run, they delivered 23 packs and the route, despite already not being at 130, is still at 116 or something like that? you could go deliver 46 no problem, and at that point even 230k commerce blows thru 3510 labor.
No, you shouldn't get some sort safe zone route buff with white arden or wherever, replenishing at absurd rates. Change route. Hellswamp pays 21g for a regular pack, cinder pays, Ahnimar pays, Halcy pays, make larders that were cut down in size, get in the water, etc etc, change routes. Trading is already a top earner in terms of professions, yet here we are complaining about it.
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Dont see eye to eye with a lot of this guys views but I agree completely!
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You're really hung up on the assumption I only run one or two safe zone routes. Or others do for that matter.
Because this thread isn't just about me.
1 Freighter run is -5% market value
1 Boat run is -12% market value
1 Hour is +5% restored
Pack runs can be 5min - 30min depending on your route of choice.
People can cycle pack runs, do Halcy Wheat, then Spicy Meat, then White Arden Fert or any combination of those.
That supports a single person, if another does it, the market staggers, if three do it, the market cripples.
Since boat runs are fast, a single person can absolutely do a power hour run and crash all of Sanddeep's routes for hours before next recharge.
Boat runs should be that way, building a boat is a huge investment, it should be an upgrade to freighter.
You should be able to dump your labor fast in commerce exchanges with a boat.
The point of having a faster recharge means more people can participate in that.
There is a clan Nuia Trading Company, they're pack runners.
But the market only recharges 5% per hour, if three people want to do pack runs, they really need to split up which ones they do.
If 10 people want to do pack runs, there aren't really enough routes in the game worth the labor/silver ratio to support them.
Person A who crashed the Sanddeep market is out of labor, in 4hrs when the market recharges, they'll have abit of labor again to do a mini run if they want, then they can choose to crash it again.
If the recharge rates were higher, then they'd be out of labor and others could participate in those runs during their labor downtime.
That's the number one issue. Pack runs are not limited by labor, they're limited by time. The market recharges too slow for this server.
We grow 10000 grain in a day, and can barely spend 2000 in pack runs. 5 hours of pack running is 1620g on a certain set of routes. That's assuming you do 5 hours of non-stop pack running, because the markets are in prime condition. That's assuming you don't get attacked, or another person chooses to do your routes as well.
You mentioned fishing, we could go there, what if fishing spots were limited to 10 fish per hour at a frenzy, doesn't matter who fished them, if three people were at a fishing spot, that'd mean they'd have to split profits, possibly too much, and a fishing spot couldn't even support 11 people.
That's the situation with pack running, the recharge is too slow to support a lot of players and provide an adequate material sink.
Because this thread isn't just about me.
1 Freighter run is -5% market value
1 Boat run is -12% market value
1 Hour is +5% restored
Pack runs can be 5min - 30min depending on your route of choice.
People can cycle pack runs, do Halcy Wheat, then Spicy Meat, then White Arden Fert or any combination of those.
That supports a single person, if another does it, the market staggers, if three do it, the market cripples.
Since boat runs are fast, a single person can absolutely do a power hour run and crash all of Sanddeep's routes for hours before next recharge.
Boat runs should be that way, building a boat is a huge investment, it should be an upgrade to freighter.
You should be able to dump your labor fast in commerce exchanges with a boat.
The point of having a faster recharge means more people can participate in that.
There is a clan Nuia Trading Company, they're pack runners.
But the market only recharges 5% per hour, if three people want to do pack runs, they really need to split up which ones they do.
If 10 people want to do pack runs, there aren't really enough routes in the game worth the labor/silver ratio to support them.
Person A who crashed the Sanddeep market is out of labor, in 4hrs when the market recharges, they'll have abit of labor again to do a mini run if they want, then they can choose to crash it again.
If the recharge rates were higher, then they'd be out of labor and others could participate in those runs during their labor downtime.
That's the number one issue. Pack runs are not limited by labor, they're limited by time. The market recharges too slow for this server.
We grow 10000 grain in a day, and can barely spend 2000 in pack runs. 5 hours of pack running is 1620g on a certain set of routes. That's assuming you do 5 hours of non-stop pack running, because the markets are in prime condition. That's assuming you don't get attacked, or another person chooses to do your routes as well.
You mentioned fishing, we could go there, what if fishing spots were limited to 10 fish per hour at a frenzy, doesn't matter who fished them, if three people were at a fishing spot, that'd mean they'd have to split profits, possibly too much, and a fishing spot couldn't even support 11 people.
That's the situation with pack running, the recharge is too slow to support a lot of players and provide an adequate material sink.
There are way to many routes for this to happen like 10-14 zone just on the west. If 1 route has a low % simply move to another. You can take stuff to the other content if need be, go to a further location if needed. Change to cargo, take that to freed or even Auroria. Surprise even Auroria deals in trade packs now and I’m for damn certain no one is running them because I do them and allway at 130%. I was running Sandeep packs a few days ago and every time I went there 116 to 130. I didn’t even get into larders yet. Not to mention there are 2 types basic packs, 2 types of larders, fertilizers and 1 other type I forgot the name of them. That’s 6 types x the amount of zones just in the west. So many routes it insane. Sometimes quality is better then quantity. I merch from Kark to yny yields about 700 charcoal and takes about an hr. If they sold at 1g and that’s low it’s 700g vs your 3 hrs of safe runs.
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You're cherry picking a Kark run though.
Ahrimar Fert is 342g an hour after expenses for 2340 labor before reduction.
If multiple people do that, it could drop to <300g/hr
Proposing a higher market regeneration at least keeps it at ~330g for a couple people to do the run.
Also, if it was tripled, you'd make 990g in an hour, at the cost of 7020 labor before redux.
A player only has so much labor per day. They're still getting their 990g for 7020 labor, it's just done in an hour instead of in three so they have time for other things.
By the way that's 342g an hour in this current economy where 4$ in credits are 1500-1600g, so if someone were only doing pack runs for Saturday, they'd need 5hrs of just doing Ahrimar fert WITH NO COMPETITION just to exchange 4$ in credits. Not to mention that'd only burn 1800 grain. Meanwhile a single gazebo would produce 4320.
Ahrimar Fert is 342g an hour after expenses for 2340 labor before reduction.
If multiple people do that, it could drop to <300g/hr
Proposing a higher market regeneration at least keeps it at ~330g for a couple people to do the run.
Also, if it was tripled, you'd make 990g in an hour, at the cost of 7020 labor before redux.
A player only has so much labor per day. They're still getting their 990g for 7020 labor, it's just done in an hour instead of in three so they have time for other things.
By the way that's 342g an hour in this current economy where 4$ in credits are 1500-1600g, so if someone were only doing pack runs for Saturday, they'd need 5hrs of just doing Ahrimar fert WITH NO COMPETITION just to exchange 4$ in credits. Not to mention that'd only burn 1800 grain. Meanwhile a single gazebo would produce 4320.
Beerson
Member
I get what you are saying, it would be nice to be able to spend labor faster and actually have time for other things, but it would break the labor economy
you have to look at fishing, which is pretty nice profit, but even with the new buff takes a LOT of time to make gold, this would just erase that buff and completely kill fishing again
second what about coinpurses, you can farm like 300-500 per hour, which roughly translates to 400-700g and is very active way of making gold compared to driving hauler or ship, so it should make lot more gold per hour, if you made 990g a hour with land runs then what about people who need to put several times more effort and only get to 700g an hour, not even talking about the gear required for that vs no gear for hauling
also another point is the already bad west privilege, it is well known west traderuns are much better then east ones, and with this you would make it so much worse then east players would actually make west alts with freighters to make gold with, also crashing your prices
there is a reason why fast ways to burn labor are way less proffittable then slow ones, and changing the time per gold on packs by such an amount would seriously mess up economy